Episode 124: Interview with Dr. Stanley Hauerwas

Today's episode is a bucket-list episode. We interview Dr. Stanley Hauerwas! Dr. Hauerwas has recently published Fully Alive: the Apocalyptic Humanism of Karl Barth with the University of Virginia Press. We talk about this work and a little about how Hauerwas understands the task of theology.

Timestamps:

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello and welcome to a history of Christian theology with me this week will be Dr. Stanley Hauerwas, Dr. Howard wass has written a book called fully alive the apocalyptic humanism of Carl Bart. And that is published with the University of Virginia press, whom we thank for giving us a copy in advance. It was a great pleasure to be able to talk with Dr. Howard wass, as I have read many of his books and listen to many of his lectures. So I was very grateful for the opportunity to be able to talk with one of my, one of my heroes, one of my theological heroes. And so I'm so grateful for the time that he took to, to speak with me or one on one. And so we're going to cover, you know, just some of the questions that came up for me while reading this book, and just a little bit about his theology in general. So it was, I hope that it will also be something that you will enjoy. Because I know that I did, I wanted to also draw your attention to the website, a history of Christian theology.com, a student of mine, Graham Bell chamber has been working tirelessly to get that up and running. So if you would please check that out. On the website, we will have transcripts, we will have links to books and other things that were referenced on the podcast. So do go check that out. If you have any comments or questions, please email me, there's a new email, there'll be associated with the webpage, as well, as you can message me on Facebook, I noticed recently that we have approached 99 ratings and reviews on iTunes. So that does help people find the podcast. So if you would, if you enjoy the podcast, go out there rate review us. And let's get over the hump of 100 ratings and reviews. It so I also wanted to mention that we do have a lot of interviews coming up. And so we'll be talking about the atonement and the Middle Ages, we'll be talking about wisdom and Augustine, we've got a question. We've got a book on divine freedom and human responsibility. But just a lot of things, a lot of interesting topics coming up in future episodes. So stay stay tuned. Follow us on Twitter at theology XXI A N, follow us on Facebook and in our web page. And you can see all those interviews as they come out. So without further ado, my conversation with Dr. Stanley Howard was well, yeah, so I guess I thought we would just start off our conversation. I'm very grateful to the University of Virginia press, who have provided a copy of this book. And I also appreciate a professor How are washes forbearance? We had scheduled this some time ago, and my grandfather died. And so it took some time for for my family to kind of work through all of that. And and so I appreciate your your willingness to work with me on scheduling conflicts. And then yeah, coming on the show. So thank you, Professor Hauerwas.

Stanley Hauerwas 3:06

I'm pleased to do it.

Charles Kim 3:10

Well, so the book is called fully alive. And as I read it, I'm now wondering so that the the title itself, it's a fully alive, the apocalyptic humanism of Carl Bart, but the the actual phrase fully alive, do you? I don't remember if you say where that comes from, is that from the era and as, quote, The glory of God is man fully alive?

Stanley Hauerwas 3:33

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

Charles Kim 3:37

And how did you choose that as the kind of what is the connection to Iran as kind of helped draw out some of what you're trying to work through with respect to Carl bark, Carl Bart and his own humanism?

Stanley Hauerwas 3:51

Yes. And I've always thought Aaron is is recapitulation account of how Christology recapitulates God's calling of Israel as promised people. And the whole history of Israel there is taken up in Christ's life in a way that is reproduced by the church as part of the witness to Christ or the world. And so the Aaron is, quote, is what I had had partly in mind. If I remember, right, I was trying to come up with a title. And I think Sam wells suggested fully alive, and that's how I think the title came to me.

Charles Kim 4:50

Very good, very good. There was as I was thinking through some of the questions that I would ask you, and I was thinking about your and as I was reminded, and you mentioned, George huntin singer, I actually did a MDiv at Princeton seminary. And he used to say, all the time in class A god is like light, but unlike any light that we know, and and so it's another kind of one of those sort of phrases that he would return to again and again, to kind of help us think through some of the implications of BART's theology, but even his connection to kind of, you know, early church theologians as well.

Stanley Hauerwas 5:27

I like that kind of move that Huntzinger makes. Because I think it's, I have a chapter in the work of theology called How to Write a theological sentence. And I think that coming up with sharp sentences, is part of the job of a theologian. Insofar as the very reality of our worship of Christ forces, grammatical expressions that then take books to explain. I worry a little about the word explain. To show the significance of I, as you know, I use that wonderful sentence by Jensen, as my sense of what a great theological seller says God is, whoever raised Jesus from the dead. Previous previously raised Israel from Egypt. Say that the crucial thing in that sentence is the audience whoever, because what it does is render problematic the presumption that you know who God is, prior to, having raised Jesus from the dead. And that always seems to me to invite deism as a way construing Christian theology in a way that's a disaster. It's just a way of trying to illustrate the point about how the reality of Christ forces grammar that otherwise would not exist.

Charles Kim 7:19

Yeah. And that's borne out in this book, as well. You do use lot of powerful sentences and come back to them in this work, what you know, just on the Political Theology, the first ask of the church is not to make the world more just but to make the world the world. You know, there are similar of these kinds of deep thoughts that come back again, and again, as you try to work them out. And it also seems to reflect as I understand it, some of how you even under how you kind of characterize Bart's own approach to theology, which is shoeing a system, but but repeating true phrases in different ways to sort of, you know, help. Yeah, I guess, you know, I don't want you to try to use the word explain. But we've already talked, you know, explain what what, who Christ is, are they to sort of reflect the historical reality of who Christ is?

Stanley Hauerwas 8:23

Jason mutuality, has turned in T shirts to mice. My statement, Jesus is Lord, but everything else is just bullshit. I mean, I would stand by that one. In terms of time, that I think is can be defended. But one of the other kind of sentences that I like is, if you need a theory of truth, to know that Jesus was raised from the dead, worship that theory, don't worship Jesus, which is a very Marty and move of course.

Charles Kim 9:10

Yeah, well, and I wondered, I, when I was working through the book, I, you know, I've read some bars. I can't claim to have read all of it. And so but I'm sorry.

Stanley Hauerwas 9:24

No one can claim to read all of it.

Charles Kim 9:29

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like, it's like we you know, with similarly with Augustinian studies, I think someone counted up five and a half million words from Augustine. And so you know, like, even though I'm supposed to be sort of a student of Augustine, I haven't read all five and a half million of his words either,

Stanley Hauerwas 9:46

right? No.

Charles Kim 9:49

You say as for Carl Bart. The quote that I really liked from the book was the church never acts on principle, but judges spirituality and by individual cases, and so this was a sort of an insight for me to even understand how Bart works, which I mean, it almost sounds like a kind of casuistry, right? It's almost like you know, you want to you want to be careful of having too much of a method or an ism as as you explain it. So could you say a little bit more about how this works in your own thought, as well as in the, in the work of BART as a theologian,

Stanley Hauerwas 10:25

I think you look constantly for differences in terms of how differences are displayed, or the use of analogies. And so how it is that we, how knowledge of God through the inadequacy of language is displayed fundamentally, in the continuing theological work. saying, God isn't. And that's a great challenge for Christian theologians because they, they want to be able to say more than men can be judged by.

Charles Kim 11:21

Yeah. Well, that almost returns to your Jensen quote, God is whoever, right? So there's something similar there where you want to be careful about not saying too much, and sort of preserving some of the apophatic character of theology, but still needing to say something.

Stanley Hauerwas 11:38

Yes, that well, the apophatic is dependent upon the Kalafatis. And, of course, that comes from prayer. That an ongoing challenge for Christian theologians how he's always say, and people never believe me, I'm a very simple believer. I believe what the Church tells me to believe in partly that I, I don't like the language of belief very much. Christians, we believe that New York is south of Boston. Line, which I believe is too weak. You don't die for beliefs, you die for reality, had our curtain.

Charles Kim 12:48

Right. Yeah, I'm reminded of Rowan Williams book tokens of trust, which I've used in my intro to theology classes sometimes. And you know, he tries to lean on the use of the word Trust in and explaining the Creed's rather than belief, because I think he has a similar idea that for whatever reason how we've come to use the word belief, it's become so weak and ineffectual. That that, you know that he thinks that we should use more the language of trust. So I've tried to use that with my students.

Stanley Hauerwas 13:21

I like that book a lot. I like most growing does. The moon that we both are making there, it's mentioned strongly influenced by Vic and Stein. Think that's where Rohan is that wrong?

Charles Kim 13:43

And, Vicki, I don't I'm not familiar enough, I guess with Vidkun. Stein, does he talk about the language of trust versus belief?

Stanley Hauerwas 13:52

It's just it's the kind of distinction that you learn to make having read Vic and Stein's investigations, is it's just a an insight that you can get from having having been disciplined by his accounts. The way we must say, why did why can be said.

Charles Kim 14:29

Yeah, well, and what what other kind of quote that you use in some of your other works, just sort of going on that that language of belief. You're sort of famous like lecture I've seen on YouTube or something, America's God, and I feel like I've heard you say it a few other times. You know, Americans have this way of saying, I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, but that's just my personal opinion. Or that's just my belief. And you criticize you sort of call out a How weak that that kind of notion is. And I thought I would just sort of ask you, you know, how how is it that you are able to see with such fear, same kind of acuity, the sort of the the faults or the failures or the a bit of that case, the sort of set the mentalities of American language like, one of the things that I always appreciate when I read to you is I feel like I understand America better, and the kind of language that modern Americans use. And, and I sort of see it in a whole new light. But what what it how you think, for your sort of ability to see with that kind of penetrating insight,

Stanley Hauerwas 15:47

impatience. I'm just impatient. And I suppose, given my background, I'm always continually surprised that I'm a Christian. And I don't know that I'm a very good one, but I don't it's all or nothing. And I just have never been content with the presumption that being a Christian will give me meaning in my verse, something like that, rather than how is it possible that world recognizes that this Palestinian Jew that was killed by the Romans turned out to be the Son of God? But you take that in? It seems to me the kind of generality generalities about Christianity that reinforce our narcissistic desires, has to be seen for what it is it's bullshit. Oh, that's, that's the kind of background I think that is why I have little news for that kind of set of mentalities that shaped so much of American Christianity.

Charles Kim 17:44

Yeah, I remember we used to say of my grandma, that she didn't suffer fools. And mama did not suffer fools, it seems, there's a little bit of maybe a little bit of that kind of insight as well.

Stanley Hauerwas 17:58

By that's probably true. I think it's also coming from the working classes. Being part institutions that are upper class Elite has always given me a certain kind of edge. People, I don't necessarily notice that people do.

Charles Kim 18:29

Yeah. And I guess I sort of am curious how you, you know, you've been professor and bid, it's circles, you know, very vaunted circles for many years. And what's what's kind of impressive or humbling or something, I'm not sure that you're, you're sort of able to retain some of the like, some of the sharp and powerful forces of the way that you were raised and so you're able to continue to bring those insights and not let yourself be overwhelmed by the the, the awe and the prestige and all the other things that seemed to make places like Yale or wherever, Duke, Princeton feel so prestigious, but you're, you're able to cultivate kind of the some of those intuitions that that shaped you when you were when you were young, I guess is there you know, other ways in which you sort of stay kind of in touch with that kind of world? Or is it just, you know, I guess there's like an old Aristotle quote, if you show me the boy, I'll show you the man I guess.

Stanley Hauerwas 19:39

I think I don't know how to answer that. I just am what I am. And I think

Hi, just I just don't have much patience with sophistication, either. In terms of class habits are overly determined theological projects. And so I keep I keep my work out simple, though it takes a lot of sophistication to maintain simplicity.

Charles Kim 20:41

Yeah, yeah, I'm reminded of a Peter Brown quote about Augustine. And the way that he preached his sermons. He says that it's an eloquence achieved at the other side of simplicity. But what I think he was trying to get at, as far as I understand in the way that Agustin preached was that, in a sense, Augustine was simple. But but it wasn't merely just the exact same thing, as you might hear on the streets of Hippo or Carthage. He clearly had great eloquence, but he wasn't sort of constantly showing that eloquence. And so his speech became simple and actually, in a sense, sort of chastened by his reading of Scripture. And by the humble Christ,

Stanley Hauerwas 21:23

right? I, of course, that's in book seven. He confessions it uncIe. He, politeness finally, won't do for him because they have no sense of humility. That Augustine didn't quit being a rhetorician, as you well know, when he became a Christian. He just was one that put his rhetorical skills to serve as the fight that had found. That's one quote from Brown. He has so many wonderful quotes.

Charles Kim 22:14

He does he does, it makes you know, there's so much good secondary literature, I, you know, it makes me feel foolish anytime I try to write about Augustine, because I just think there's so many others who have said it better than myself.

Stanley Hauerwas 22:26

Why did you write your dissertation?

Charles Kim 22:29

I wrote, I wrote it on the humility of speech in the sermons. Yeah, so it was it was basically me trying to understand how the virtue of humility played itself out and how Agustin encountered his people in in the, in the Liturgy of the Word.

Stanley Hauerwas 22:49

That's great, because, of course, if you try to be if you try to have the virtue of humility, you won't have it. You can't try. You discovered who you are. That's, that's tricky.

Charles Kim 23:12

That's right. That's right. Yeah, well, and that your little phrase there that you discover it is who you are. It, it sort of connects with the another book that I use in my theology classes, sometimes. For intro to theology, I have them read the character of virtue, the letters to a God, Son, I'm doing it my students love it.

Stanley Hauerwas 23:38

I'm glad to know that it's a book I like very much.

Charles Kim 23:43

Yeah, it's, I you know, I have to say I was a little surprised at first. Because to some extent, I think they thought I was being sort of like treating them like children or something that they might be kind of offended by it. But they, they just, they really appreciate your kind of candor about your own life. And then and some of the ways that you talk about the difficult of, you know what it means to be an American, but then we really tried to like dig deep into the notion of virtue as as presented there. And actually, if I could play off another quote from this new book fully alive, you say, quoting Nietzsche, as soon as Christians begin to use the language of values, you can be sure they no longer believe in God. So I thought maybe could you speak a little bit about the difference between virtue and value as a way of kind of responding to that Nietzsche quote,

Stanley Hauerwas 24:41

otherwise, there's a wonderful passage and a new book by Mary on on the Catholic moment in France, where he has some reflections on the language of values. In language values, how Are the language that you can expect a decadent culture use says, But value his of course capitalist language that indicates subjective desire far and that are fundamentally arbitrary. So the values are always think, not unlike Groucho Marx wouldn't want to be a member of a country club that would have him as a member, that values are subjective. And desires that are arbitrary, that just to the extent that you make them what they are, you don't want them would you trust? Would you trust yourself with a morality that you yourself have chosen? is part of the virtues, of course, are habits that depend upon formation of the body in a way that the means and the ends are commensurate to justice, the extent that you discovered that the habits necessary to be a person of humility are not arbitrary, but reflect the character of what it means to be a good human being.

Charles Kim 26:59

One other question that has come up for me, in the, in reading that the character of virtue, you talk a lot about the gift, and that life is a gift, and I love, you know, and I think probably, you know, to some extent, that's also arising out of a reading of Augustine as well. And even that notion of habits and acquiring the habits, it's, it's, it's, I feel like it's an increasingly hard thing to teach my students, when I'm to sort of understand that they do things that they where they don't realize what's happening. But before long, they've developed a kind of habit, like you say that, that, you know, you're not trying to do it, you can't sort of set out to be humble, or you can't set out to, to acquire the virtues, but they're learned through behaviors. And usually I end up using sports analogies, that that says the best like

Stanley Hauerwas 27:56

do. Yeah, it's our best analogies today.

Charles Kim 28:01

Yeah, and it sounds like and I tried to, you know, you you have some sections in there about learning from the sort of the gift of the work that your dad was given to do, as a bricklayer. And I you know, I think that's a and I think that's a very powerful way, but so many of us were not raised sort of given work to do as children. Or, and I don't, I don't mean to say that children should go back to the factories or something, but, but having some sort of meaningful work, that's part of how they were raised. It's a it seems like it's an increasingly difficult thing to explain to the younger you know, the students that I teach,

Stanley Hauerwas 28:41

I say that the great thing about being a Christian is it gives you something to do there's so much of our life today just isn't anything to do is just one thing after another so a purposeful life is a great gift that we are given as Christians and gift when the gift language can invite the presumption that I exist and I receive a gift but the Christian account his wife itself is gift you don't exist and then receive something you're new our reception so it's not like there is some position I held prior to being a creature

Charles Kim 29:51

Yeah, and and that almost comes full circle to some of the stuff that we were talking about at the beginning where if you have a theory for truth, then you should worship that theory. And in some sense, the, the, the truth just is that you are a creature. It's not it's not about a theory or a method or something that's behind the thing. It just is the thing you just are creature, just like Christ is the Son of God, by nature try. One, one kind of question that I was trying to work through a little bit too, as I was reading, again, I'm in a place where I don't know, Reinhold neighbor, very well, you know, one, one book or something here or there, but you talk about the difference between the real and the ideal. And then, which is one way of ethic, it's a neat Barian way of looking at the world so so there's the, you know, basically, he has to give up the ideal for the real. And then Bart, you you characterize as looking at the real and the unreal. And I find that I too, sort of don't like the language of the the real and ideal, except for I also find it hard to think about the unreal and the the real. So I don't know, it was I was I was trying to kind of get a hold on what's at play there between neighbor and Bart, and maybe other language for kind of the world that we find ourselves in?

Stanley Hauerwas 31:24

Well, for neighbor, of course, he he thought that what Christ is his other plastic law, it is love that is completely sacrificial. And such a love cannot be at the heart of political life, because politics demands compromise in a way that is, quote, realistic, and given the possibilities of sin, that shape our lives. So the idea ideal is love, which means that its expression, in terms of its actual embodiment, in our lives, will be relative justice, which involves power and violence, that must be used in ways that do not overwhelm the goods that might that the political make possible. What is left out and all that is, of course, the church, the kind of people that we ought to be to not be determined by ideals, but determined by the reality of Christ in a world that would crucify him again, if we had the chance that the world does crucify him again. So, the language of ideal real was my way of challenging apologetics. My cat has joined us so my old neighbor was a determined you Protestant theologian, or who went on to have great respect bar but who I think made determinative mistakes.

Charles Kim 34:01

I see. Well, thank you very much, I thought I would just end with you know, returning a little bit to the humanism of BART and as a way to kind of close up and again, refer back to the book which I you know, I know you have many books, but I learned a lot from this one. So I, I don't know where it fits in this sort of pantheon of, of Howard Watson books, but But I enjoyed it quite a bit. Yeah, well, thank thank you for writing it. There's a great quote on 115 You say Christians do not try to be more than human, they are more humanistic than the humanist just to the extent or sorry, I think that makes more sense. I missed out the book left off because because Christians do not try to be more than human. They are more humanistic than the humanist just to the extent that we have learned to confess that we are not our own creator. And I thought that that sort of It capsulated again, the the point that you've been trying to make here about how Barack can have a kind of humanism, which he's not known for the, for being attributed to him. And I thought it was a wonderful quote, it also just reminds me of, again, sort of the urine as or affirmation kind of idea that we learned what it means to be human in Christ. So it's not a an anti humanism, anti human thing, but just that we actually learned humanity from Christ.

Stanley Hauerwas 35:35

Yeah, that behind that I was thinking. Martha Nussbaum account of Aristotle and the fragility of virtue, in which she praises Aristotle, far, wanting us to be no more than human. And I, I think that's that's true, Aristotle, but it's very hard to keep humans merely human. And, therefore the schooling that we get from Christ makes us no more than human. But the humanity that we are no more is one that takes great risk in life, because of what we've been given as alive, determined by cross. So the kind of mere humanity that Christians represent is as connections with an heiress to tea. But it is more than the airspy humanity. So that's some of the kinds of things I was thinking.

Charles Kim 37:18

Well, Professor, how it was It has been an absolute pleasure to be able to speak with you and so grateful to have you as a guest on a history of Christian theology.

Stanley Hauerwas 37:29

It's been great

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