Episode 123: Interview with Dr. Myk Habets on Heaven

We are pleased to welcome back Dr. Myk Habets. We discuss Dr. Habets books Heaven: An Inkling of What's To Come. Dr. Habets provides some insight into why we should look forward to heaven and how to talk about heaven with your family.

Timestamps:

4:23- Practical Eschatology

12:51- Lack of Imagination

24:10- The Language of Hell

33:53- Beatific Vision

51:10- The Challenge of Eternity

Episode Transcription

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello, and welcome to history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. With me this week will be Myk Habets. And I have talked with Mike one other time on a podcast about the doctrine of Theosis, in the theology of TF Torrance, and after our conversation, he sent me another book that he had written about heaven. And so we're going to actually talk about his book on heaven. It's called heaven, an inkling of what's to come. This book was actually published back in 2018, with Cascade press. And so I was grateful to Dr. hobbits for having another conversation because our recording of the first conversation was lost by my technical failure. But this conversation actually came along quite well. So I hope that you will enjoy it. It's an interesting conversation. Insofar as we talk about a what Mike calls a practical doctrine, that is the doctrine of heaven, what do we think about what heaven is and how we should think about heaven as Christians, so it might get a little more practical than some of my episodes might seem to be, I hope that you'll enjoy it. I really enjoyed talking to Mike. And it was very helpful for me, even just thinking about how I talk with my own family, my kids and my nieces and nephews about the difficult topic of death, but especially our promise and hope of heaven as Christians. So, so I'm really excited about this episode. We also have some new episodes coming with Stanley Howard wass, with Dr. Benjamin Quinn on Augustine, and we have a few more to go. I'm hoping to do a few episodes actually on theology and farming. So I've got a lot of stuff in the works. I would also like to thank my student grant Bell chamber, who has been working very hard at producing a new website for us. So if you would like to go to a history of Christian theology.com, you can see our website where we'll now have transcripts, links, and other information about the podcast and our guests. So I'm grateful to have that website up and running and to the hard work of grant. So that is a history of Christian theology.com. And from that website, you can find our Twitter and Facebook and Patreon. And all the stuff that's going on with the podcast. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Mike hobbits on the topic of heaven. Also, please don't forget to rate us and review us on iTunes. We prefer good ratings, but even bad ratings help people find the show, I did have someone write in recently and tell me that volume of the voices raised and lowers a lot, I will not accept that. So sorry, to David 1985 9090, for having such a bad sound on my podcast, I will try to fix it. And maybe grant can help us. But if you'd like to read more, leave a more positive review. We also welcome those. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you for the next episode. I wanted to have you on again, because I felt I felt bad that we recorded that whole thing. And for whatever reason I only got your recording. So I had to like read, I had to try to like, recreate the questions. So it was not one of my better technical moments. And it was a great conversation. But you also sent me this lovely book about heaven. And I hadn't had a chance to actually even really look at it until I. So my, my son is three. And I have a little daughter as well, she's but she's eight months. So we're not talking about anything with her. But I also have a niece and nephew who are six and seven. And so we were just talking as a family like about how we were going to talk about my grandpa who just recently died. And I thought I you know, I don't know, I don't exactly know what I'm going to say. And then I thought well, Mike habits who I'd had on he had this book he sent me, I should I should go back and look at it. And I just I love the way that you you know the way that you formatted it, the way that you sort of engaged questions about heaven. And I just thought I Oh, that'd be fun. I should I should talk with him about this book, and let my audience also know that this is a great is a great resource. So I really appreciate you coming on.

Myk Habets 4:23

I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, it's a unusual book for me in many ways. I'm most of them. I publish stuff as academic theology for an academic audience with you know, titles that deliberately don't sell well be perfectly okay and modern thought and stuff. But but all theology is practical. You know, I lecture in an evangelical College. I'm an associate pastor in a Baptist church. And it's, it's the lifeblood of theology, as you know that it's practical. And so, yeah, this was an attempt to deliberately write a different genre accessible I don't need degrees to read it. Yeah. And I loved it. And I'm hoping I'm hoping I might do some other ones in the future. People have asked me if I'd write one on hell, I'm not going to. I don't really want to do. But maybe maybe something like salvation, I think might be the next thing I'll tackle.

Charles Kim 5:21

Yeah, well, that's Yeah, it's interesting. That's a different launching point than what I was going for. But, well, I really liked what you said in the conclusion you use. And it's similar to what you just said, there. But you said, I'm a dad with a theological doctorate, who feels the burden to correct my children's taunts that I'm a doctor, but not the useful kind. I live out. I live out the conviction proven true so often, in my own life, that theology is practical. And the doctrine academics called eschatology, and everyone else calls all that crazy in time stuff is as practical as it comes. Which I thought it's a pretty good line and a pretty good way to think about, you know, yeah, the the more academic elements, but here how it is it is all practical. So, yeah.

Myk Habets 6:05

And that's good. It's one of the glories of the Christian faith. It's livable. It's it's realistic. Yeah. Well, that's one of the things that keeps me grounded, I guess, particularly in church life, that the more esoteric language, it's only to serve worship and practice. And as a good reminder, I think,

Charles Kim 6:24

yeah, yeah. Well, right. So like Bart says, it's like a second order doc, or a second order thing. Right. Theology talks about the the worship of the church and the Liturgy of the church. Yeah.

Myk Habets 6:36

Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as we tell theories for the reality, then we're in serious trouble.

Charles Kim 6:44

Yeah, well, I sent you a few questions. And and you just mentioned that some people had asked you to write a book on how, but but my first thought, like when I came to this book, you know, almost like, one thing my mom and I were talking about, is, like, a lot of times, you know, it's hard to imagine what heaven is like, or it's hard to sort of think through, like, why is, why is that? So enticing? Like, I get that I don't want to go to hell. But like, you know, it's hard. It's sometimes it's hard to conceive of, what is the allure? What is the desire, what is the joy of heaven, when, and also to some extent, and this is kind of the confession. It's like, sometimes things go pretty well here on earth. You know, I like being with my family, or I want to see how my children grow and play and work. And, you know, sometimes we kind of have, I feel like we have sort of a crisis of an imagination or a lack of an imagination when it comes to heaven. But man, can we be captivated by hell? Like, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of weird things that American evangelicals do, to sort of scare people out of hell. But yeah, we'd have to go into those. But why is it that we have this kind of captivation with hell, but not with heaven?

Myk Habets 8:02

Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot. I think there multiple reasons for it. Part of it is, maybe it's a little bit negative. But there's sort of a general biblical illiteracy that that modern Christians have typically fallen into. I don't think the enlightenment for for the positive things the Enlightenment gave us I don't think modernity has really gifted us resources around how we read scripture, collectively communally. And so I think practices, the breakdown in a particular in a westernized industrial society, the breakdown of sort of family practices of eating together around the dinner table. You know, statistics show that hardly hardly any families do that regularly now, which is amazing. The break, I'm a Baptist, so I wasn't brought up this way. But the the breakdown in in catechism, I think, is, you know, it's I think there are 100 reasons why society is fragmenting Christians is part of that society of fragmenting. So what we're not doing, we're not reading scripture much communally. We're not praying scripture much communally. And therefore we're not just talking about it. And in casual ways, we'll talk about it and in Sunday school and Bible study and HomeGroup, we will talk about it for that one hour, on a Wednesday night when we're supposed to talk about it. If we even go to those things, but pretty much outside of that I think just lots of people and I'm I'm particularly younger people, young adults, I just don't think this is part of the conversation in so what we're doing as a church is I think, we're leeching out of people this what Lewis calls this baptised imagination, where we read texts of Scripture, and then we actually get into the narrative we indwell those texts we start reading between the lines, there's all good stories and VITAS. Hi, I'm Mario Lewis fan, you know, and the subtitle has an inkling of what's to come, you know, not to Louis and his friends. And this this idea that, you know, when Lewis writes Chronicles of Narnia, for instance, they're really brief. There's not a lot of words there compared to Tolkien, which is just, you know, crikey, exhaustive. But he provides enough for the reader to then their imagination fills in the gaps. And I think that is cryptology, I think God provides enough information for us to then start to fill in the gaps. We can't be dogmatic about those gaps. But but that's not the point. The point is we can develop hope we can develop face and develop love. So I just don't think we're talking enough about Scripture because we're not reading it enough. And we're not reading it enough, because we have, I think, to put it bluntly, we've got a lack of confidence that scripture actually is anything that important to same. If we really thought it would, we'd have higher rates of reading scripture, higher literacy. And that's something that we want to combat. And one of the ways to do that just one off is to write accessible works. It's also you know, through music through Kenickie says through all sorts of stuff, no silver bullet, but I think more broadly, that the students I get in class, some are, some are exceptional. No, no question. But there's a sort of this almost defeatist attitude in our culture, and that you can't be will change it, you can't be an influencer, you can't be very anti American Dream stuff in some ways. And it's the postmodern irony that you've got these cultural liturgies, you can be anything and everything you want. And yet, we've got the highest rates of anxiety, depression and suicide we've ever seen. Like, what what's going on? And I think at the heart of that is, perhaps our education systems, both in secular education but also in Christian education, we've probably defaulted to a scholasticism where there's a doctrine, and it's not not literally you learn it by rote, but it may as well be. Whereas, whereas families don't work that way, you know, families work around debate, dialogue, discussion. It's far more dialogical. And I think we want to get back to that, that dialogical stuff. And so again, putting a resource are hoping to the hands of family so that well, how could we dialogue around these difficult issues? Well, here's here's a prompt. Here's a startup. Yeah. Instead of ask all the time, what does heaven? What does heaven look like? Perhaps? Maybe we asked, What does heaven smell like?

Well, what does it What do you mean? What does it smell? Like? If it smells like something? There has to be something to smell? Yeah, yeah, that's the point. So what would be there? Is there anything there? You know, are we just disembodied souls floating around in the clouds? So that was, yeah, that's that's part of the impetus. Why do we lack imagination? I think, ultimately, because we're not taking scripture seriously enough. And we're not developing practices like we used to, to indwell those scriptures communally. The quiet times a wonderful thing I was brought up through the 80s. But you know, having a quiet time, individual in your room, read read Scripture until you find something to do that day. It's not all bad, but it's not all good, either. Why would I hide off from the community? You know, some form of family devotions? I think, far better. Yeah. So there's some reasons, that negative but there is a solution. I think, you know, Scripture and the church do hold the resources to combat this.

Charles Kim 13:51

Yeah. Well, in speaking of families, it was also one of the things that I appreciated about the book. I think it was towards the beginning, you started talking about like dancing with your daughter, I think and about how you were talking about how she delights in dancing. And where does that come from? Where does that delight come from? And you were talking about how that was how you learn to talk up? Or that was one way that you were talking with your children, about the delight of God, and I can't remember do you think you probably do quote, Eric, the Eric Liddell line from Chariots of Fire? Yeah, so my. I mean, that's one of my all time favorite lines, from any movie, Eric Liddell, the famous athlete from Scotland, who's, you know, his parents are Scottish. And this is, you know, for the audience. I know that you know, this one, but yeah, and he says, you know, when I run, I feel God's pleasure and are the same, but God also I know that God may be for purpose, but God also made me fast. And when I run, I feel His pleasure. Yeah, it was such a brilliant line.

Myk Habets 14:58

My sons my son You know, he's he's the athletic coordinator busy. My daughter, you know, equally coordinated. But yeah more in to like you're saying that art and dance and beauty. Yeah, it's this idea of I develop around this idea of, of priesthood which is, again, I'm a Baptist. So we don't call people priests in our tradition. But there's nothing wrong with the language. It's very biblical, very biblical, and a priest has to be a priest to others, they can't be a priest to themselves. Because of turn this priesthood of all believers into, you know, we're each our own priest. Well, no, that's not priesthood. And I think parenting is one of the few areas where we are almost by default priests, we, we represent our children until they can represent themselves. And finding it finding coat hangers, you know, finding things to hang big ideas on. It's not easy. I'm not no expert at that. But those were, those are a couple of sort of things I was able to grasp onto with my kids to say, you know, yeah, where did this come from this love of athletics, this love of running this love of, of dancing beauty, that doesn't come in a vacuum. It comes from the God who is beautiful, the God who is athletic, you know, there's nothing wrong with saying these things. Yeah, yeah. Again, the biblical metaphors were given about God, invite us to have others as well, as long as we don't make those idols. They are approximations of God who language can't contain. So the God who dances you know, we're used to that. Now, that model, the God who sings is very traditional. Why not? The God who was athletic tall, I think, had no problem with that.

Charles Kim 16:47

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, and one of the things, I mean, just, you know, I guess, like that, so people can be aware, you know, it was interesting the way that you structured it, because you started, the book kind of goes around, like drawing from Scripture. I can't remember I remember, let's play. I was trying to remember what the three there were the three different sections for each thing, but but they begin with sort of taking from scripture, then sort of interpreting with scripture, but then sort of playing with the imagination is kind of the structure of every chapter.

Myk Habets 17:23

Yeah, yeah. Let's listen to Scripture. Let's talk let's let's do some some theologizing. on that. And then let's play. Not unbridled, ridiculous fantasy. But let's play let's let's, let's read between those lines that are given. And let's follow the discussion that God has initiated. Yeah,

Charles Kim 17:45

yeah. Well, I so some of the questions that I sent were a little bit more into particulars, or, I don't know, things that I was kind of personally interested in. But I thought it was interesting and helpful, like, so when we say heaven, we kind of have and you've already alluded to some of this, you know, that, that a lot of us are still kind of have a plate NYSED model of the soul escaping the body. And, but But you know, and so there's like that misconception about heaven, that it's just this our souls and heaven when we die. But you also make a distinction between heaven and the new heavens and the new earth. And it seems like one of your bit, you know, at the end and their conclusion, you said, if we can help the church with some new language, this might really get us off on the right foot. So So why are those important for us to realize these these kinds of distinctions?

Myk Habets 18:44

Yes, they're good questions. And there's, there's obviously there's a whole debate behind all of these, and I'm just putting forward how I cut my way through those debates. So you know, in a longer lecture, we'd want to be be fairer to different positions, because there are but yeah, we typically, what we see in Scripture is that there are, if you like to heavens, there's a temporary abode of God presently. And then there will be there's this great hope, this great expectation, where the New Jerusalem comes down makes its home on Earth, the new heavens and the new earth or the renewed heavens renewed is this final state of affairs where Behold, I make all things new God pronounces and we're probably better so that we don't get confused. What do you mean there's two heavens that's not very helpful. So there's, we might use this Persian word there's there's paradise now. And there's the new heavens or renewed heavens and a new earth to come. Paradise. The promise of Jesus to the thief on the cross today you will be with Me in Paradise is the technical term, and that Persian word, it's the If it's the garden that's outside of a great cathedral or a great mansion, you know, if you go through Europe, you got these massive castles, they're always, they always have this huge garden, sometimes it might be kilometers that you drive down the driveway, and these be beautiful gardens. And the idea is that you linger at the fountain and the lake and you smell the flowers, but you only linger there for a period. The idea is that you're supposed to see the grandeur of the garden speaks to the greater Granger of the castle. Oh my goodness, what's the inside gonna be like if the outsides like this, and that's the word that we find picked up paradise, the abode of God now and the Saints now is that outer garden, it's wonderful, it's beautiful. It's paradoxical, literally. But it's not. It's not the final destination. That's the renewed heavens and earth that we got makes all things new. And that's paralleled by by two hells, there's the present Hades, which is a place created, arguably created for fallen angels, as a prison cell effectively. And unfortunately, I think populated now, also by humans, who reject the gospel, who put themselves outside the, the final salvation of God. And that too, will become what we call hell, that the final state where even the devil is confined. And so we've got this temporary existence, and abodes now is holding pens, if you like for the final state, which God is bringing in. So just a way to distinguish that as important, particularly around paradise and new humans New Earth, because we're not yet there in the resurrection, we don't yet have Christ triumphing, enrolling directly over the world, He is the Lord of all, but the second, the second coming has not yet happened in so it's a way to acknowledge the temporary in light of what's coming in terms of the permanent. Now, I am one who thinks that even in that temporary state, that intermediate state is called I think we're embodied. Now Christians disagree radically over this. Traditionally, it's thought to be a disembodied state where our soul floats free of any physicality. Again, that's a second order sort of sort of doctrine, we can agree to disagree on that and not divide. I just think it makes more sense that we are embodied there. But it's a proto or pre resurrection body. So again, it's a way to account for where our loved ones are in Christ now, and we've got things like the book of Revelation, apocalyptic, apocalyptic literature talks about the fact that people don't cease to exist. They're not they're not in some sort of soul sleep, they don't have amnesia. They're alive and well unconscious, I even think embodied, but they're still awaiting with the rest of us this final consummation. Yeah, so that distinction is is somewhat important. And ultimately, it's, it's really just to keep our focus on on the bliss and hope, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will then make all things new and renewed.

Charles Kim 23:16

Yeah. And just as a side note, while you were talking a little bit about how all right so this has been a kind of a background in this conversation. I do. I have a conversation coming up with Michael McClymont, who wrote now forgetting the title, the devil's redemption to volume work with basically

Myk Habets 23:39

what's that? Massive, massive work really good work? Yeah.

Charles Kim 23:43

Yeah. So he, he's, he's at SLU with me, so. Yeah, so I got so anyway, listeners can look forward to that conversation, where we will also be disc actually, I think by the time our conversation comes out, that one will be already there. So we sort of tackle the nature of how people talk about universalism versus some of these other aspects. But yeah.

Myk Habets 24:10

I do think there is still a place for Hell, I think, I think the language of Hell is scriptural. I think the the basic content of hell of scripture or the way I talk about that bridge very briefly, in this book, when I when I addressed the question who is or isn't in the new heavens, you have to say something about who's not there. And the best way I've found whether it's acceptable or not, is to think of how as a as a prison cell for those who really do want to confine themselves there because they, for whatever reason, want to exclude themselves from the blessings of God it's a it's It's absolutely absurd. In John Calvin uses this language that sin is a mathematical terms. It's absurd. It's it's utterly irrational. Why would anybody If I want to do that, and yet people do, and it's inexplicable, and he said, because it's an inexplicable, I have no explanation. It just is. And I'm quite happy with that actually not happy that hell exist or how happy that people put themselves there. But I'm happy with the explanation that it's just utterly irrational. But it's true. Yeah. And I sort of leave it there. That's why I don't want to really write a book on it. I think the, the attraction of heaven should be more compelling than the fear of hell, which some of us grew up with.

Charles Kim 25:33

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, you know, I don't remember where Calvin says that it's been some time since I've been reading through Calvin. But Agustin says the same in City of God. Right. And, you know, I mean, it's just, I think it's been 14 or 15. But, yeah, he just says, I can't give an explanation for something that's inherently irrational. That would apply if I could get give an explanation that it was rational, but it's not.

Myk Habets 25:57

Yeah. And that the best they leave at their full stop. And at their worst, they tried to go on and give a give an explanation. Yeah. And

Charles Kim 26:04

indeed, indeed, one of the things that I was also sort of interested in and now this is, this is getting more technical than we have been. But is the question of Theosis, in sort of TF towards his writing, which kind of has like a more of a notion about participation, it kind of can kind of see more platonic, but I noticed that you didn't really drew a draw on Torrance, which is what, you know, one, one thing that you have been known for theologically, yeah. So how does Taurus help you at all think about this? I mean, it seems like most of the time, you're, you're drawing on CS Lewis, and you're drawing on scripture, but but a little less from the kind of,

Myk Habets 26:47

yeah, yeah, yeah, that was an interesting question. And I was conscious of it, writing the book. I think there's a quote, I don't know if it actually made it in the book, or if I found it later. But one quote from Torrance that, I mean, it's not particularly unique, but it's good that the essence of Heaven is Christ, which is a very, very traditional idea, and a good one and a right one. Theosis this notion which I accept and buy into this, this ancient Christian notion that we were created as humans to be conformed to the image of God, to be God like Christ, like to in the resurrection, but in part before that, also initially, to attain some attributes of the divinity that aren't natural to us. So they are supernatural given by grace, their mortality is one of those very obvious ones. Flesh and blood that we inhabit deteriorates. It's not it's not created to last forever, naturally. But the gift of immortality is given to us in Christ. Yeah. So I think Theosis is important, the participatory stuff. I didn't put it in this book so much. Because I thought this was the sort of foundation to then have that discussion. We are having that discussion too early. I think it would have derailed it or got too, too technical too quick in ways that perhaps people couldn't follow. In a perfect world, it'd be perhaps a second edition, with an with an appendix. Like the Theosis appendix might be actually quite a good idea. Now, now that it's a little bit like you're finished your theological degree. And then you want to say to students, right, we're now ready to start day one, this is preparation to actually have the discussion. So they've got your degree. Let's start doing theology. It's almost like now you've read the book. We've got that under our belts. Okay. Now let's really start to talk about what it really might begin to look like be like, feel like, and I think Theosis would do that work? Yeah, that's good idea. I'm gonna make note of that, actually.

Charles Kim 29:01

Oh, good. I'm glad that this conversation could be helpful.

Myk Habets 29:05

Yeah, look, I think so I think I think we could talk about the osis. You know, the process of being deified and what that means into eternity. I think there are really good, practical, rich resources there. And my intuition would be that what I would do is to develop this idea that was prolific and erroneous and then come through the tradition, this perpetual progress of the human, this constant striving and achieving, striving and achieving the idea that and it's it's in the book already, but developing it that eternal life is not static. I'm there, I'm resurrected. I know everything. I am everything. I'm now in this completely passive state of just pure meditation and contemplation. I don't buy that for a second. I don't think that's that Human. So that's probably where I developed that. Yeah. And I think there is some good resources in that tradition to do that. Yeah, that's probably my intuition there. Yeah.

Charles Kim 30:11

Yeah, I think Gregory Nyssa has a little bit more of that idea of, of movement towards God as perpetual. And if, if I remember, I don't know if I talked about this with Hans Bergsma in our conversation, but it's one of the differences that he makes in his book on the Beatific Vision between Augustine and the sort of Latin interpretation of Plato. Augustine has much more of this sort of rest, you know, and our heart is restless until arrest is in you. And it does feel like his eternal rest is more static. Whereas Nyssa has more of a vision of, you know, perpetual movement as you just described it. And so yeah, bears Madras that out a little bit in his book seeing God.

Myk Habets 30:58

Yeah, and it's a it's a, it's becoming a divide in, in eschatology, between those who see beatific vision as the essence and substance of the whole thing. And those like me, who would see that as part of the picture, but but, but not, not the fullness of it, and it's becoming a bit of a parting of the ways not not vitriolic at all. But yeah, there are very clear differences in it. It's historic, as you've pointed out, those who fall more on on the developmental those who for more on the sort of pure, almost, well, it's what I was gonna say, almost Buddhist type notion, that has probably been unfair, that's too strong. But this idea of static, just being rather than any form of doing, I just find that very anti human, and antichrist. Because if that's true, then Christ is already that in the assumption, that means Ray Anderson used to ask his students the question, does Christ have any new ideas? Do you think he ever has a new idea? Trying to put his finger on this? If it's yes, you're more on the progression stuff? If it's no, you're more than the other camp. But if Christ never has any new ideas? Yeah, I don't know. How interesting is that? He has no new experiences, then he has no to what extent the body be human anymore. So unlike Nisa, at this point, I push back against the idea that we become human but human that has no correlation to our humanity. Now, I just, I think that a false false notion. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting though, this idea that there's this naturalism versus sort of spiritualism, more naturalism versus supernaturalism. That seems to be the divide and in eschatology at the moment. Yeah, Richard Middleton, myself, you know, a bunch of us to naturalistic apparently, for some of the more reformed. I'm not a great fan of Thomas Aquinas. So well, I don't know him. I'm not a great fan of Thomism as a as a as a method or, or a content of theology. But this this real attraction by Protestants to Thomism, particularly Reformed Protestants, after Webster, I confess I'm not on board that train. A pure, almost pure supernaturalism where the vision of God is, is meatless content plus and static. Yeah, yeah, I know, not for me.

Charles Kim 33:53

Yeah, well, I guess that sort of answers one of my questions, which was you did, you did use the word Pacific vision once, in May, at least that I recall. Maybe it was twice I don't know. But But briefly, it comes up, but you seem to move past it pretty quickly. And, and I think that, you know, I want one conversation I have with a friend of mine, so I'm not a pastor. So I have served in churches and various roles, but I'm not ordained. And so I get to spend all my time reading about these, you know, abstract ancient debates. And I became really taken with talking about beatific vision, and thinking like along those lines, and my friend Eric is a pastor, and in a kind of, not exactly rural conversation congregation, but a kind of rural congregation. And he just, you know, he just says, I just don't know how I preach that to people who have like, you know, a more embodied experience like I mean, you know, their daily lives are just, you know, more taken with that and he said, I just don't, I don't even think I can begin to know how to preach beatific vision and the way that you're talking, you know, kind of, again thinking along with bears, and some of these others, and he may be right or wrong, but that was what he said to me. And I, you know, it was a lot to ponder.

Myk Habets 35:12

Yeah, and I think, look, I like like many things, I think there's a balance, we should all try to achieve. It's difficult. So, as I was writing this book, I was, yeah, I was keenly aware that the heart of the vision of our future existence is delight and glorifying God. And if that's not the center of it, then the rest of its fairy tale. Yeah, if we're not completely captured by the beauty, love and enjoyment of God, then no amount of fruit trees and lovely green grass and clean water is going to make up for that. So the Vizio day the vision of God, you know, the stuff that Hans, as you're saying, has been developing over collecting and collating and developing. It is a big part of the tradition and we, we'd be silly just to rubbish it or just put it to one side. It has captivated Christian minds for a long, long time. There was something important about it. For my money, though, it just I think the vision of God needs to be redeveloped around Theosis and Theosis is fully embodied participation which is which is spiritual, it has spiritual vision, it is spiritual knowing it is contemplation. It is it is being it is rest. It is it is those things. But it's not only those things and what I find in the Thomism it, it's only the rest of the Stetic. And it's meaningless. It's wordless, visionless, there is no content. So it is effectively darkness. And the Eastern Christianity, they have similar problems. I think it's so light, God has pure light that he's invisible. Well, you've just got the same thing with a different image. And part of that's true, yes. Yes, Part of that's true. But it's the part that I think is the problem. So again, yeah, if I did another chapter, or an appendix, perhaps, around Theosis, that would have to be a bigger part of it, I think. bring that into the present, though, you know, I share the concerns of your your pastor friend, you know, how do we preach and teach this in real ways? I'm in a very small church. So you know, if it's not real, they're not interested. But if they're not interested, if Christians aren't interested in delighting in God, for God's sake, then we've got deep problems in so we do need to develop even for you know, rugged farming communities. Yeah, we do need to develop the theology of just being in the presence of God. And that's enough, that's enjoyable, enjoyable is too weak, isn't it? That's pure noise, pure delight, that vision of God. Yeah, there is something to that I've just I was about to say, I'm thinking I'm just a few small groups that I've been visiting and speaking at churches recently. And it's interesting the amount of times, people put into conversation in different words, experiences that they've heard or head, which is supernatural, in in relation to God, which the Eastern Church would talk about in Scioto terms, even to the point where stories about people glowing, literally beaming deathbed experiences with loved ones who are who are about to go to the Lord. That's interesting that there is this appetite for that. So yeah, I think I think I should be careful me and my friends on this side of it should be careful that we don't go so far that way that we lose those riches. I just want my friends on the other side of the fence to come closer. And we'll occupy that middle ground a bit more.

Charles Kim 39:11

Yeah, well, it's interesting thinking about CS Lewis, too. And I think he used the quote towards the end from Maybe it's from surprised by Joy, I think it is from a surprise by joy, where he talks about like, being delighted by something. And but but never being satisfied, like because you just want to be a part of it. Like you don't, you don't want to just observe it. You don't want to just feel it, you want to be in it. And I think that's, you know, it's interesting, because that's a kind of participation, that kind of Theosis that you're talking about. But it's also you know, as as you you know, that your whole book, it seems like every chapter at least you have a reference to Louis so he has a he has a way to have kind of that physical embodied delight and joy, but also an enjoyment that that's so close to the thing itself as if to not be separated. Yeah. And

Myk Habets 40:06

that's the essence of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we could get every Christian and being able to articulate personally, something like that in their own terms, then we'd be, we'd be a deeply mature church with a whole lot of anxiety and angst, I reckon. If I could get my students graduating, they can articulate something like, I don't just want to be close to God, I don't just want to be like God, I want to, I want to be God, but not an idolatrous sense. I want to be gone. Let's go be Susan and Mike, I want to be so close with the beauty as Lewis says that I pass into it and it into me. And then we'd given the New Testament and say, yep, here's the answer. We're in Christ. We're in the spirit. We're transformed from glory to glory. Yes, you know, if we could, if we could share that with our hairdressers and our you know, people at sports clubs and friends we rub shoulders with, I think the gospel would make a whole lot more sense to people, or at least be more attractive to people. And if that's what the Vizio day, if that's what Beatific Vision is implying, then I'm all for it. I just don't think it always is implying that. So we need these other other resources. Yeah.

Charles Kim 41:21

Well, I mean, I have one other question on here, but I don't know how much time you have. It seems like I've really appreciated talking to you. And I don't want to, I don't want to take up any more of your time. But in this way, I really appreciate it. What's that?

Myk Habets 41:37

Um, oh, good. All right. No problem.

Charles Kim 41:42

Oh, well, you know, one thing, I mean, just even as we're talking, I feel like your excitement both from what I've read. And from what, from listening to you, like you mentioned, even in your book that early, like, early on, you found it difficult to think about heaven, but in the process of writing it, you realize how much you enjoyed it. And so it sort of seems like, you know, what, one question that I like to ask guests are ways in which they've changed their mind on certain things. But it seems like you could even like your personal journey in writing this book has has renewed your own kind of excitement about the topic.

Myk Habets 42:20

Yeah. And I think theology does this. I mean, I'd speak this way pretty much about any theological topic I find when I'm lecturing. You know, people will say, What's your favorite topic? I'm like, whatever I'm lecturing this week, or what's your favorite Bible verse whichever one on preaching the Sunday because I think we just got such good material to work with but yeah with with given it's a lot of it, I think is a lot of Christianity is is deprogramming us from false theology we may have picked up and the more we read scripture, again, communally. I mean, reading it, personally, communally listening to sermons talking with our Christian friends, all of that Bible study. Just it's not that it's all wrong, that that's that's not the impression I want to give. It's not it's mostly, you know, Christianity is Christianity. It's mostly right. Jesus as Lord, etc. But, but the stuff we build up around the edges of that we often get confronted with, when we do Biblical Studies. And you're like, huh, it's not quite how I began to think of it we develop caricatures. And we, we round corners out, so a square ends up becoming a circle. And, and a character becomes a character of a caricature, and we just need to be really careful. And I think this is what God in his in his providence, this is why in Israel with the Old Testament Church and the new, he just gives us feasts. He gives us things to do, he gives us sacraments. And it's like, well, I didn't forget last week, what the narrative was, why would I forget this week? is like, yeah, just wait, because as soon as you stopped doing it, you will forget, look at my people Israel, look at look at the church history. And so God wants us to keep remembering, reciting, talking to ourselves what we know. It keeps us honest. But it also keeps us from going wide and shallow, and helps us to go deep, and dig those deep wells to draw from. So for me the it emphasized through the process, more and more, this worldly message. So when you know, Russia is at war of Ukraine, and they're still feminine, large parts of the youth and there's slavery on mass. I mean, it's just there's so much bad stuff. And then that's not even talking about our families, ourselves. This person has cancer, this person's dying, this person's relationships breaking up, this person, and this person might be me as nasty sometimes, do you not? I mean, it's just so easy to sort of just get depressed really. And maybe the Gospels maybe is a bit of a fairy tale, maybe it is a bit outdated. Maybe, maybe Christianity is a bit of a self promotion, marketing gig that you know. And you start, you start getting tempted to think God is not good. Maybe Romans eight isn't true. After all, that was just pull on a good day. And then you start thinking about the grand narrative of Scripture, what God has done what God is doing what God will do the fact that this is not Plan B, this was his plan from the beginning, to make us these glorious creatures that were human like, like him, in many ways through his son Jesus, so that we will have perpetual progress and striving and hopes and dreams and fulfillment and advances and maturity and relationships. And all of that isn't just when I die, you know, I live a miserable life as a Christian that may last, God forbid, 80 years or longer, what a misery and then I die and it's up. It's all good news. It's like, no, that's not the gospel, that stuff bleeds into the prisons, so that within cancer diagnoses and within breakups, and within all sorts of stuff we see, we see God in the church, redeeming those things, even amidst the chaos and the pain. And I think that's what that's preferable to any congregation. And so yeah, that last chapter, it's not all pie in the sky when you die. And someone in my church said, It's dinner on the plate. While you're wait. I like that.

And so I just find that it gives me and as our family talks about these things, it helps us when we go to school, it helps us when we go to work, it helps us when we enter into difficult conversations with people that we have to it helps us when we watch the evening news, to keep one eye on the prison and one eye on God and what he's doing. And and it just gives hope. And I think hope is the big thing. My kids are 13 and 15. Now, and we're in New Zealand, it's a 5 million people. It's beautiful. It's green, it's it's safe, relatively safe, it's just a it's almost paradise. It's a wonderful place. And we have some of the we have the highest rates of teenage suicide in the developed world. As like, what on earth, we have rampant anxiety, my kids come home from school, almost every week talking about a friend or someone they know in school that's got that's clinically depressed, that self harming, that's got significant anxiety issues. And you know, what, New Zealand is also one of the most secular countries in the world. So Christianity is at an all time low. Religion has pushed to the periphery of public life. It's not we're not persecuted other than we're just sort of mildly mocked for being more believers. So globally, eight out of 10 people believe in a deity and live their lives according to that deity than New Zealand. Eight out of 10 people don't believe there is a higher power. So it's not hard to work out are rampant secularity is, is having a real pervasive negative impact on mental health, human flourishing. And so when we think and reflect about what God is doing, what God has done, what God will do, it's helping us not to get defeated, not to get depressed, not to, again, that's not a verse for verse antidotes. You know, depression is not sinful. Some people need medication. And that's just absolutely there's just no issue. That's that's, I'm not saying that. So I'm not talking about clinical depression. I'm talking about just being overwhelmed. And being hopeless. Yeah, so it helps us to be realists. We can acknowledge pain and suffering and tragedy in our lives and others those around us, but not be overcome. And is there overcomers that? Well, that's what I'm trying to get for my children at least as much as possible. I want them to enter the young adults sort of lives, get into university and stuff, and not be those who are overcome, but those who will encourage others. And the only way to do that it's not through power of positive thinking, that's not going to do it. It's not through sort of some other New Age philosophy. I think it's being centered in Christ in the gospel and having a firm and secure hope in the life to come, which has an impact now, and if they I don't know, but if they can talk about this in ways that are natural in the language to their friends. I think I think the gospel will take root. Well, I hope and pray it will. So for me, yeah. What has it done for me and for us? And the I think I mentioned that last time the cover of this book, originally from the publisher was a picture of a little infant babies I sort of staring into the abyss of the heavens. And I'm like, God forbid, no, no, that's, that's against the whole tenor of the book. And so they said, Well, what do you want? I said, I want something, something thirsty, something physical, something vibrant. I've just been to a cafe and there was a coffee table book of an Amazonian rain for I think it was Costa Rican, actually a Costa Rican rainforest, something like that. So they just took that and put it on the cover. Okay, that wasn't necessarily, but that's fine. vibrancy, life, hope, development growth, all because Christ is at the center of it. And you know, some of those really old hymns that, you know, I'm, I'm a kid of the late 70s and 80s. Right, so some of those old gospel Hiddens, which are just all about Jesus, Jesus is enough, you know, they're true. They're corny, the music's a bit bit corny, but the lyrics are pretty good.

Is Jesus enough or not? So that's how it's influenced impacted us and continues to do so. I think that's why God says something about what's to come. Yeah, if humans have no future, no goals, then they don't flourish. Without without things to strive for. We don't flourish. That's why we like jigsaw puzzles. Some people do. So why we like doing Wordle. And if you get word all in one every day, you're not going to play it. Not fun, not fun. I got six, six chances, I'm going to work it out if my wife and I do it together over coffee in the morning. And that that slight challenge. That's what makes it fun. Life should be challenging. And in eternity, it will be challenging without the sin element. Now, ah, that's what I hope communities and families can talk about. What do you mean, life will be challenging, full of challenges without the sun? Well, sports, sports is a challenge. I want to win every time I play. But I don't. And that's okay. If I lose and it was just a tee that was a good match. I gave it my all they gave it their all they were better than me. There's no sin involved in me losing or them winning. It's just there was a challenge. And you know, next time, I'm going to, I'm going to I'm going to get that guy next time. So whether it's puzzles, mathematics, whether it's theology, life, relationships, this, this is what makes us human, I think. So yeah. Again, I may have said it last time, but I'm continuing to think around First Corinthians 1313. These three remain faith, hope and love, faith and love, they're pretty simple to work out how they remain forever. How does hope remain forever, we have to have something to continue to hope for. So we hope and it's achieved, we hope and it's achieved, we hope and it's achieved. That's part of the glory of heaven. I know Christ, I'll know more tomorrow, or know her more the day after, or no even more the day after. I wonder what depths there are in God for me to find out. throughout eternity. I can't, I can't wait. And I don't have to. I'm finding it out now. It's through conversations through church through worship through life. It's a Yeah, to come back to where you started. It's a very, very practical doctrine. It's thinking about the future makes us better people in the present. And I think that's why God knew that. And that's why he wanted to put it in the Scripture and wanted us to talk about it ad infinitum until he comes again.

Charles Kim 53:58

Well, I think that's as good a place as any for us to bring the conversation to a close. Yeah, it's been a pleasure again, talking to you, Mike. And I'm pretty sure I'm gonna I've got it all correctly recorded and everything this time, so we won't have any mishaps, which also, I hope, you know, and have been there won't be. Yeah, well, we'll be present. So we won't need the recording. But, yeah, well, I really appreciate you taking your time with us on the podcast, and you're actually my first repeat guests. So you know,

Myk Habets 54:32

excellent. Thank you. So good to talk about this stuff. And God bless you, with your your son and your daughter, your niece and nephews as you as you're talking about your own challenges. Yeah, yeah. And the wonderful thing is as Christians, the gospel is comforting, is genuinely comforting. Our challenge is just to live into that and it is a challenge but it's a good one.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai