Episode 121: Interview with Hannah Nation

In this episode, Hannah Nation joins us to discuss her book, “Faith in the Wilderness: Word of Exhortation from the Chinese Church” which collects sermons from different pastors active in the Chinese Church, which has been subject to much persecution.

The adversity which these pastors have faced (especially in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic) is reflected in their sermons and shines brightly through Nation’s research, and there are significant insights to be had on subjects such as martyrdom and our culture’s impact upon our faith.

The faith and strength which is shown in these sermons can be an especially potent reminder to the American Christian who has not experienced the type of religious persecution that is prevalent in other parts of the world.

Timestamps:

• 9:48- COVID-19 Pandemic

• 15:46- Martyrdom and Suffering

• 22:04- Christianity in China

• 32:52- Fundamentalism in the Chinese Church

• 45:38- State of Chinese Culture

Episode Transcription

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello and welcome to history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. This week I will be talking with Hannah nation. Hannah nation is the managing director of the Center for house church theology. And as content director for the China partnership. Hannah nation has edited a new book that gathers sort of sermons and evangelistic kind of messages from pastors in the Chinese church during COVID. So from the last several years, the book is called faith in the wilderness words of exhortation from the Chinese church, and this has been published with Kirkdale press. So I was not able to talk with any of these pastors who actually wrote the sermons. But Hannah has edited them, edited them, compiled them, and worked with Kirkdale press to get them published. So I was able to speak with her. And it was a great conversation where, you know, kind of, you can think of this conversation as a supplement to what you should read in those sermons. So Hannah gives us some details and background on the history of Christianity. And China helps us place where these messages come from, how they originated, and the kind of fit and then also, to some extent, what is actually in them. So I learned a lot from talking with Hannah, I know that you will, as well. As you listen to this podcast, I would also encourage you to go and purchase this book with Kirkdale press. I think this will help those pastors in China as well as, as well as being an encouragement and an exhortation to to you the listener who may not know as much about Christianity in China, but also what great witness these pastors are to the Christian faith. So I think you'll very much like this conversation. I know I did. And it's also a little bit of a departure for us. We don't do as much on contemporary Christianity. But but we dig in, in this conversation to the history of Christianity in China, and even to some extent the history of persecution. In in China, which has its similarities to stuff that we've talked about on this podcast, in the history of persecution of Christians and martyrdom of Christians in the early church. I'd also just like to say thank you to Andy McGraw, from I think he's in Tasmania now or Australia. And Andy was, has really enjoyed our conversation on prayer and devotion that we recently released. And he also just wanted to sort of reach out and ask more from us about how we understand Mary's relationship to Christian theology and early Christian theology. So it was it was nice to speak with him some. So if you have questions or comments, please feel free to email us. or message us on Facebook at a history of at facebook.com/the history of Christian theology. We also have twitter at theology, x i A N. So do get in contact with us. We have at least one more interview coming up with Dr. Stanley Hauerwas, that I'm really looking forward to and and a few others that I have planned throughout the summer. So you know, keep listening. Those are on the way. And we thank you for listening. And here's my conversation with Hannah nation.

Hannah Nation 3:24

I currently I have two titles right now. So I'm the content director for China partnership. I've been with them for a long time. Since 2014. And then just last year, we birthed a new org out of China partnership essentially called the house, the Center for house church theology. Okay, managing director of that. Yeah, so, but I'm still with China partnership. Very good. My titles, are content director for China partnership, Managing Director for the Center for house church theology. Okay.

Charles Kim 4:06

Very good. I know that Hannah just mentioned that she found us by searching on Spotify. And then every now and then when we get a new follower, something, I will click on something and I said, oh, this person follows us. And then you were you had a book about, and it said something about you being the content director for China partnership. And so I was sort of curious what all that was, and then the book popped up. And I was like, Oh, well, this would be cool. You know, we don't really talk much about Christianity in the sort of Far East or, you know, have much on on some of that stuff. And actually, you know, from a historical perspective, even some of the stuff that I was reading in your book, you know, was comparing China to ancient Rome. And, you know, so there was even some sort of historical connections. So the book is called faith in the wilderness words of exhortation from the Chinese church. And so we have with us today, Hannah nation who edited what is one of the editors of the book? And yeah, so So I like I just wanted to sort of branch out a little bit here about Christianity and other places, thought this is a good connection point. And like I said, I think one of the great like, sort of touchstone, like, places where, you know, all Christians can have a kind of an understanding of each other is this like notion of persecution and suffering. And so there was like, you know, but But in China, it sounds like at least from some of these sermons, that it's very real. And so like, I've studied it from a historical perspective, but I've been fortunate to live in the United States where, you know, there's not the kind of persecution that they are describing in some of these sermons. So I think, you know, like, you know, one of the things that I often wonder about contemporary Christianity in the United States, is what we can learn from, from the martyrs like a martyr church, a persecuted church, like, you know, we've had it so good, that I think we forget those aspects of our faith. So, so yeah, so anyway, that's the long introduction for why I'm very excited to have Hannah nation. So welcome to history of Christian theology.

Hannah Nation 6:17

It's lovely to be here.

Charles Kim 6:19

So the just to give a little background on some of the sermons, so it's a collection of sermons, printed with Lex ham press through there as an imprint called Kirkdale. And they basically collected now it wasn't I think it was introduction, but it's a bunch of pastors that are they all get together for a conference and preach all these sermons? Or are these collected from their the work that they do with their house churches?

Hannah Nation 6:49

That's a great question. So these pastors have some connections to each other, some relationships with each other. But they are across China, they're not all in one geographic location.And basically, what happened was several of these pastors had traveled in early 2020. to a conference outside of China, it wasn't a specifically Chinese conference that took place in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. And but there was a significant Chinese presence there. Very significant Chinese presence there. And several, many of the speakers were Chinese. But what happened, I myself was at that conference, and that conference took place, essentially, at the same time that the Wuhan lockdown took place. So Wuhan was locked down in the days leading up to the beginning of the conference. And so there was, as you can imagine, just as this there were very significant conversations taking place, leading up to the beginning of the conference about what to do, and just What even was happening within China and trying to wrap heads around it and understand the situation. And the leadership of that conference decided to ask Chinese delegations from cities that were, you know, in the news starting to be locked down or be at high risk of outbreak, they were asking those delegations not to come to the conference. But that was a really emotional thing to do, because Chinese Christians don't have a lot of spaces to gather and meet with each other, especially in such kind of large settings. And so it was not an easy thing for these delegations for various cities to be asked not to come and especially especially given the circumstances, you know, it was no one knew what was going to happen. So the Chinese essentially said, Okay, if we're asking people not to come, then we're gonna livestream this conference into China. And it was the first time they had really done anything like that, because of the security risks involved. And so they live streamed it, and there were so many people who watched it, it was, you know, in the 10s of 1000s. Wow, people who watch the live stream when the conference concluded, by that point, you know, it was at that point, Wuhan was officially live knocked down. Things were pretty intense in China. And there were now a couple 1000 conference attendees who are going back into China. And the Chinese leadership essentially said, we need to not stop what we've started with this live stream, this is a really important time to preach the gospel, and essentially to count the risk involved in doing so. And so, after everyone returned, they started having these evangelistic, online evangelistic meetings, I'm pretty open access. And the sermons all came from that. So they were preached through 2020, very much focused on encouraging believers and preaching the gospel to those who who had never heard the gospel, which I think is an interesting glimpse into sometimes what's a little different about the Chinese house churches is that they always have an ear for both those in the church and those out of the church. And there's not this strong bifurcation between the two.

And so yeah, so they preach these sermons. And their motto was basically let the light shine in the darkness. And they preached. I mean, I don't want to go into too many details, but they were very open about who they were, and what they were preaching. There are a lot of the security measures that they usually take, they kind of just set aside for the year and said, we just need to get the gospel out there. So yeah, I mean, I was trying to think of different stuff that you know, that would sort of indicate the the time in the cert in the pandemic and when the sermons were preached. But there's one of these sermons on it's called sin and Hell, but they're the pastor and I have to go back up and find his name. Or her, or they think they're all male. They're all they're all men. Yeah. So Oh, Ying Ying, Zeebo. Tchibo Shibo Yong Yong Shibo. I do not speak Chinese at the time. He, he draw drew on this, actually, this passage from Martin Luther, which I had heard, some American pastors used. But it was it was really interesting to hear him talk about, like what Chinese Christians were willing to do to be with people during the pandemic.

And so, you know, he mentions it on this on page 55. But brothers and sisters, the pandemic originating in Wuhan showed us how close we were to death. But the good news of salvation tells us that death is not our final destination. But it points to the eternal hope of entering into God's arm. And then he has this call, therefore, we must be brave, and make use of all the resources God has given. Sounds a little bit like what you were just describing, let the light shine in the darkness, including money, medicines, and our wisdom and rationality to help people. And then he goes on to detail stories about, you know, Pete of Christians serving one another, even in the midst of a plague, you know, even in the midst of, you know, the risks that they were to face and suffering, either from the government because I think at the end of the sermon, he talks about how the government was giving them surveys about what they were doing and why they were doing it. So there was there was that double, sort of fear of the government, as well as the sickness? Right. And so, yeah, I think, yeah, one of the really interesting things working on this book, I think they, I think I think I said this maybe in the introduction, but there's, as someone from western country, it was honestly like, initially very confusing the extent to which they switch back and forth between talking about COVID and the realities of like, physical health, suffering, and the topic of persecution and like suffering that comes from an outside force essentially. And, and like there were times in which it was almost like hard to track like, what are we talking about here? Because I think, in the West, we, we, we have, we don't think of those two things in the same categories. Like we don't talk about the suffering that cancer might cause. And the same language we were talking about the suffering of like martyrdom or persecution, And, yeah, and I think that for these pastors, those two things are much, much closer together in their minds under the general category of suffering. And not just this, like, abstract suffering, but like, specifically supper suffering with Christ, and how, like, understanding our union with Christ draws together these two, kind of like disparate topics in the western, like theological conversation. So yeah, I think that they are suffering is is very much a part of their identity. And I think it's, it's also part as you were talking about, just their desire to serve their neighbors, I think suffering is often kind of one of the commonalities they find with their neighbors and with the people around them. And it actually can be a really great catalyst for service to others. You know, if a church understands suffering, it is very well equipped to enter into the suffering of those around them.

Charles Kim 16:10

Yeah, well, and one of I was just finishing what some of the the last part of this this morning, and I think maybe, for me, the most moving sermon was from Noah Wang or Wong when? And he Well, not not, you know, there are any number of things actually, that stuck out to me about this sermon. One, he's very forthright with the suffering that he's been through, in losing a child that the doctors told him not to carry through and, and then just talking about this is one of the sermons that mentions the Roman persecution and similarities to China, which was striking, but his his hope, I think this is in the section on hope is, you know, you were just talking about suffering with Christ and so on 115, he says, We do not endure the deepest suffering in the darkness night, Jesus Christ, who hung on wood on the Hill of Golgotha did. So faith more valuable than gold is faith that the darkest hour and the darkest night, it assures you that God has never been silent, that he is always with you, and that he is always involved in your suffering. And then, and then he also combines that with a passage from Isaiah, can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb, even these minute may forget yet I will not forget you, no matter how dark things feel God is with you. Which, again, is a beautiful passage for any number of reasons. But that sort of idea of being with Christ in the deepest suffering, but also this notion of, you know, sort of an image of God is a woman, which is sort of a striking passage to be put there as well, another association that we, you know, that I've not seen put together like that.

Hannah Nation 17:53

Yeah, I think he's probably, you know, drawing on that verse, especially because he, he does share very intimate details of his own family suffering. For those who haven't read the book, he he and his wife lost a child. And he reflects on that, and so I think, um, you know, I haven't asked him personally, but I would have just from reading it, I would think that that verse has a particular meaning for him. Remembering that, you know, he has not forgotten his child, and the Lord does not forget us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, like I said, I went in the email, I was just trying to pull out some of my favorite parts, so that, you know, people who listen to this could get a kind of an idea of what they were, you know, what they'd be exploring when they if they purchased this book. So, which is to say, basically, there's, it's divided into three sections. And they sort of a lot of them have this theme of suffering and persecution, but God's presence and God, not not only God's presence in our contemporary sufferings, but God's you know, one time presence in the person of Jesus Christ in the on the cross. So there's, you know, there's but but yeah, so it, it does. They're all different pastors in three different sections. And now, you know, these were priests. So these were preached, though, to their churches and then live streamed as well, or These were, these were essentially publicly preached. So they Yeah, I don't want to go into too many details.

Charles Kim 19:43

Okay. Yeah. That was gonna be another question that I wanted to ask was like, What is? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I doubt the Chinese government knows my podcast, but maybe it's maybe it's searchable. I don't really know. But yeah, the book would draw attention. I'm Sure, yeah. Yeah, generally speaking.

Hannah Nation 20:03

Yeah, it's, it's fine to talk about. So yeah, so they basically have used the platform, to to host online meetings, public open accessed online meetings. And, though, you know, the link for that has generally been shared by word of mouth or just, you know, on Chinese social media. But these meetings were incredible, incredibly well attended. I've asked several contacts, how many people they think, you know, by their best estimate have attended, it's been hard to get any answer. They don't count numbers. And, you know, that's a huge difference. I feel like any ministry in the US, it's like, how many numbers do we, yeah, they don't count numbers. So but they have, I know that the average, you know, online meeting that they had, they were at times getting close to, like 1000 Login devices. And then with that would be, it would generally be a whole household sitting around during lockdown watching. So, it's not a church service, it's not, you know, like, it doesn't these meetings haven't, you know, like, follow the liturgy or, you know, had any sense of formal worship together or corporate together. And so it's really been almost kind of like, the old school like tent revivals, but in the kind of like, digital space, you know, where it, they've, they've had a pastor preach a sermon. And then there's a call to believe. And, but that's also I think, where, again, it's a different, it's a different cultural context. So there are some things that are going to be different. And one of the really key differences is that there are very few families where the entire family would be in the church. And so the general experience of any Chinese believer is that, you know, if not, most, maybe half of their family members are not believers, and they also live in with more extended family, then we do tend to in the US, so a household will usually have multiple generations living together in it. So when they preach the sermons, they know that they or they knew that, generally speaking, they probably would probably be a Christian who had the code, you know, or like the link, who would log on, who may themselves need to be encouraged in the Lord through the pandemic. But they also were aware that chant, you know, not not like 100% of the time, like those people would be sitting around their living room with multiple family members who, you know, aren't believers and possibly have never even heard the Christian gospel before. So they wanted to really take the they wanted to seize the moment. In a sense, you have a lot of people have been locked down together. It's a good time to, to share the good news with people sitting around not knowing what to do with themselves. So yeah, but yeah, so they're it's not a church setting. It's really kind of more just like a public square.

Charles Kim 24:04

Public Meeting setting. So interesting. Yeah. Well, and so that, I mean, that's another kind of question that I had, and you can do this as quickly or as much as you know, but the So these, these pastors are generally identified with the three self house church movement, is that right? So no. So there are I would say to you, I mean, there are Christianity in China is huge. So there are that by numbers. There are more Chinese Christians than there are in the United States. Is that right?

Hannah Nation 24:44

It's hard to say I think we're not far off from that. So the conservative estimate is that there are 70 to 80 million Christians in China today. Okay. You it's very hard to get official numbers. So that's the conservative estimate, I think my guess is it's probably higher. But a lot of practitioners within China like to go with the conservative number.I have seen and worked with people who put the estimate as significantly above 100 million. So it's a large, you know, it's a large church as with that there are, you know, there are lots of different stripes of Christians across China. But I would say one of the most fundamental kind of divides or distinctions would be actually between what's called the three Self Patriotic Movement, that's the official state church. And then there would be the house churches. Now, of course, it's a spectrum, it's, it's not like a hard and fast divide, you can find all sorts of people in all of all kinds of positions across this spectrum. But there is generally one of the most fundamental questions facing all pastors, and in China is whether they will register with the this the state church called the three self, or whether they will remain registered as a house church. If regarding the history of that, that goes all the way back to the Communist Revolution, and essentially, at the time of the revolution, as the state was being established through the early 50s, they started the three Self Patriotic Movement, the state church, and they required everyone to join it. And it was very divisive among Christians in China and about half went into the state church and about half refused to go into the state church. And the half that did not go in was very heavily persecuted through much of the early 20th century, or latter half of the 20th century, the early years of the People's Republic of China. And then, of essentially, eventually, as you got further into the Cultural Revolution, the three self church was also closed down. And for a while there was, you know, no open officially sanction church.

But in the 1980s, when China started to open back up again, the three self was permitted to start again, there was a several decades really, I'd say, from, especially in the like late 90s, through the kind of early 2000s, there was a lot of a lot more openness than had been experienced for a long time. And I think that was a time where it for a lot of people, it felt like the distinction between the three self and the house church might be getting grayer. And there may maybe was less there was there were some, there was some interest, especially in urban centers to kind of maybe come up with kind of a third alternative, or I don't know, but the point is, in 2018, the government essentially doubled down again on religious regulations, and there's been an increase in of harassment and persecution of house churches since 2018. And so, you know, nothing that is happening in China is anything like happen, what happened in the 20th century, you know, where we are notat the levels of persecution that the, you know, forefathers of the house church experience, but there is very significant pressure put on house churches today. And it really brings up a lot of questions regarding the Church State relationship. And I think for a lot of these guys, the ultimate question is, is who's the head of the church? And, you know, you can get into all sorts of very interesting conversations about church seat theology. Sure, but that's not the focus of this particular book. We actually have another book coming out at the end of this year. That focuses very specifically on that question. But yeah, there's so I think, trying to think about how to sum up today in China.

Charles Kim 29:57

Well, this has been really helpful. I would guess, not guess there are more house churches than there are three self churches in China today. So the majority of Christians within China are worshipping within a house church setting.

Hannah Nation 30:15

The three self church is also significant. It's very large, but the majority of believers in China would be in the house church.

Charles Kim 30:25

The pastors that have the sermons in this collection, and I guess, I mean, sermons is sort of an interesting word, based on what you said, That's not exactly a sermon in the liturgy. So they're, they're sort of like, you know, evangelistic messages to some extent, like,

Hannah Nation 30:42

evangelistic sermon would be kind of okay. Maybe a way you can put it. Yeah, yeah.

Charles Kim 30:47

Okay. But I was gonna say, are they they're from?

Hannah Nation 30:51

They're all in house churches? Nope. And that's why most of them are writing under a pseudonym.

Charles Kim 31:02

Yeah. Well, we're, yeah. Well, I have I have lots of questions, but one of them, one of them kind of relates to more of the what may be a future book. Um, but which is that, you know, the relationship of church and state, which is one that I find fascinating, but I guess, as a theologian, like when I, you know, I mean, I, I've been, you know, studying theology for many years. So when I look at this, when I read through this, it reads to me, like, sort of, like American kind of Reformed ish, evangelical Christianity. So it's like, you know, I don't hear anyone talking about infant baptism or something. But it's a very, they have a very strong sense of God's sovereignty of election to some extent. And then like, even the description of Christ on the cross fits kind of a penal substitutionary way of reading the atonement. So, you know, so when I'm reading through this, like, I'm just, I can't I can't help myself, I'm always trying to figure out okay, what is their sort of theological coming? Yeah. Is that a fair characterization is a fair characterization. Yeah, I think, these pastors, so you know, if the first way of kind of starting to understand Chinese Christianity would be the house church versus three self. Differential, then, you know, within the house churches, as I said, there are there, you can throw a stone and hit a, you know, whatever, whatever you would expect to hit.

Hannah Nation 32:46

But yeah, there is, I would say one of the most kind of msignificant growing expressions of Christian faith among the house churches would be exactly what you described. They, so the house churches, when they were birthed in the 1950s, a lot of what shaped the three self versus house church divide, actually came out of the theological debates of the West at the beginning of the 20th century. And so a kind of very loose categorization would be that the house churches were very much coming from a fundamentalist perspective. And the three self would have been coming from a more traditional liberal theology perspective. Now, of course, we're talking about China, so you can't just map it. But that would be a general categorization. What's happened recently? Yeah, go ahead. And just real quick. So from a historical perspective, fundamentalist just means the five fundamentals of the faith. And these are more about the debates over how to read Scripture. And there's sort of the liberalizing tendency to, you know, question, the virgin birth or the inerrancy of scripture or something like that. So if I think I'm understanding you correctly, so it's it's more, you know, it's not fundamentalist in the pejorative sense. It's fundamentalist in the sort of more historical use of the term and which go tracks pretty closely on to Yeah, debate. Well, I went to Princeton seminary. And so you know, this is the 1920s Meishan. And some of their kind of, yeah, okay. Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, yeah.

Charles Kim 34:44

I just want to make sure

Hannah Nation 34:46

I know you're exactly right. I'm laughing because I find this topic fascinating. So I can just like talk about it forever. So I'm sitting here like, how much does he really want to go into all right well so it's, I find it to be really fascinating. I think there are so many things about studying Chinese church history that are so much more o'clock applicable to conversations we're having today than we've really even fully realized. Because yeah, I mean, so the the theological debate and divide that you just were highlighting, really shaped the early years of the Chinese churches, and it is interesting how it shaped their responses to the Chinese Communist government. And I think, you know, just so and then, you know, you bring in the history of Western appear imperialism, and the Western mission movements, and it gets even more interesting. But one of the most interesting things is that the fathers of the house church, were, were very keen on this affiliating themselves from Western missionaries. And so, and the fathers of the three self church, were also keen, everyone wanted to distance themselves from the Western missionaries.But I think there was, you know, as often happens, when you react against something that has been difficult or problematic, then it kind of opens these, like it can push you to your common enemy. And so a lot of the a lot of the three self father's of that of the three self church, I think we're just very, very hopeful that communism and the promise of the communist state would solve what both the house church you know, forefathers and the three self forefathers saw as a common problem of China's sovereignty, the issues of just what China had been through for the 100 years leading up to the 1950s. But they had, I think, very different answers for it. And what this is where it gets really interesting to me is I think that eschatology has always been this huge issue for the Chinese church. And a part of that is because China as a culture, really, since it's been, you know, dealing with,um, the collapse of it society, in a sense, these questions of eschatology are so important. And these questions of where we heading and who's going to take us there are so important. And so I think those with a lot of the more conservative theologically conservative, like underpinnings, basically responded with a very strong stance of it is not the state that is going to take us there. And those with a more traditional liberal theological stance were much more interested in exploring ways that cooperation with the state would be able to help with this vision. But I think one of the interesting things is just that, you know, communism is an eschatological ideology. You know, it has its own eschatology. Sure, so it creates all this conflict. It's not a neat system to kind of you can't just have your little spheres. So yeah, so anyways, we could we could keep going. Well, the question there, and I'm not sure I answered it

Charles Kim 39:29

No, we went, we went deep. Well, I just know, it helps. It helps. It helps in a number of ways. One, just sort of sort of know where these pastors are coming from, you know, with history with Christianity. That was the question. Yeah. But but also, like, to some extent, you're answering another one of my questions, which is, you know, which is the relationship between sort of Christianity and the local culture. And so, one of the one question that I always kind of have When when I'm doing I mean any kind of theology really, you know, so like, I teach an intro to theology class at SLU. And I have the students look at Creed's from a creed from Thailand, a creed from Kenya, and the the Apostles Creed and I have them talk about, you know, to what extent do these Creed's reflect their local culture? And to what extent do they sort of show a universal vision for what Christianity is? So you know, Christ is always prominent, the Trinity is prominent. But then my favorite is the Maasai creed from from Kenya, and they talk about Jesus being on Safari. And the hyenas laughed when he was down in the grave. And I mean, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And but anyway, so I always leave, save that one for last, because that's my favorite. But so but it's this question of like, how is it that Christianity can be this sort of thing that's more than a local culture? It's a truth that can transcend culture, but it's also a truth that takes root in a culture. And so, you know, you were sort of talking about like eschatology in the communist mindset, eschatology and the Chinese mindset, you know, and I noticed that there was a reflection on Revelation. And they talked about the sea of glass. And it was it which the the pastor at once mentioned, as a Buddhist image, and then as a as an image from Revelation. And it sort of colored his reading of Revelation. I think it was 15, if I remember correctly, in a way, you know, I don't, I don't particularly love reading Revelation. In terms of like, I'm not a big person on eschatology. Yeah, Revelation 15, one through four Paul Peng. But but it was fascinating, because he was using this reflection to talk about the end, as you just say, as you rightly say, in the grace that can bring us to the end, and how that can kind of look differently from the sea of nothingness. I think it was in Buddhism. But yeah, so it's just interesting, overlapping of like, how ingrained it was in the culture. So I don't know. Do you want to speak to that, like, what how Christianity has sort of the kind of missiological term is indigenisation? Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Nation 42:20

Yeah, well, I think, again, there's just so much you can say, yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I just love reading their reflections or their sermons, whatever you want to call them, is is how much they draw from so many different references. Like, they reference, as you mentioned, like, they'll reference Buddhist imagery, they'll reference Gao gone. You know, like, they reference so many different things. They reference, the reformers like, it's such a notice of the gospel reference. I wrote my dissertation on it. But I think that, um, so there's kind of, you know, there's the obvious things like, oh, yeah, like, they'll bring in Chinese cultural references. But I actually think, the real work of translation or contextualization, it's always more behind the scenes, you know, it's less about like, you know, what, author, a pastor references in his sermon? Because those are always such just tidbits that people throw at me, you know?

Charles Kim 43:45

Sure.

Hannah Nation 43:46

But I think that, for these pastors in China, I actually think eschatology really is where the deep contextualization is taking place. Interesting. And I think it's becausethere is, I don't think any of the pastors that I've talked to you from China, like if you talk to them, the first thing that they'll say is that the gospel is making inroads in China because Chinese feel like the fabric of their society has like, it's like, loose like they, they don't have a underpinning for, like, the big questions, you know, and they don't have this like the it's fraying that's what I'm looking for the word I'm looking for, like the the moral fabric is frayed. And so they're looking for answers to these really big questions. And and I think that, you know, the meta narrative is always were like that hasn't That's where like the gospel clashes against everything else in the world, you know? Because the big answer to, you know, where we've come from and where we're going, is, you know, what so often puts us in opposition with others, you know, and so I think that a lot of what they're doing is essentially saying to Chinese society, like, there is an answer. Like, it's not like Chinese society right now is very just materialistic. It's very, very, I think you could even say like, vapid and I don't mean that pejoratively. I just mean, there's there is there's just they've lost their roots, you know, they rejected a Confucian perspect perspective and framework for the world, they've essentially rejected a communist ideology and framework for understanding the world. There is vestiges of both, and that remain in Chinese society and culture for sure. Their play playing a lot with just kind of straight up nationalism. Right now. But, you know, nationalism doesn't take you very far as a, you know, overarching framework or ideology. Sure. So, um, you know, it to the extent that the Chinese individual feels this just kind of a lack of a foundation for their society. That's where the gospel enters, enters in, in a really powerful way, you know, and it enters in. And I think what's interesting is that the city is just, it figures so large in their kind of the contemporary theologizing that's going on in China right now. It's, you know, I don't know if you've ever been to China, but it's impossible to go to China, let alone Asia, and not just be like, thoroughly, like, just blown away by the size of the cities there. You know, like, I think that to the extent that, you know, kind of pastoral imagery, or like the countryside gets, like, centered and a lot of like Western theology, like probably one of the most significant ways that I think Chinese theology will, like, provide a contextualized, like change is that it will be like, the imagery of the city will become more important, because they all live in these massive, massive cities, and you can't live in a city of like, 20 million people plus, and not have that just shape your understanding of like, what we're talking about when we talk about the city of God. Yeah, like, we're not talking about this, like, old European idea of the city anymore. Like we're talking about something very different. And so I think there's, there's a lot of interesting stuff, I feel like, it's only starting to get kind of legs, but I think there's just a lot of interesting stuff, where just even the ways in which I think exact like the just the, some of the positions that you notice that, you know, they're kind of broadly reformed there. Kind of coming from this broadly, evangelical, broadly reformed kind of perspective, it's going to be fascinating, because, you know, if you take, like, if you take the gospel, and you read gospel in a place that has never experienced Christendom, but like, you have that interest in, like, the city, and like, just like it's gonna be interesting. It's like, it's like, not really been done, because so much of our, like, so much of the Reformed theology and from reformed perspective comes from the vestiges of Christendom where we're very ingrained and situated in our societies. And so, I don't know, we'll see where it goes.

Charles Kim 49:47

But yeah, well, that, that yeah, that one that that leads into one of the questions that I had and also reminded me of a funny quote, but so Stanley Howard was one of my favorite theologians And I think actually, he's gonna come I'm gonna get to interview him maybe next week, but which I'm excited about. I know. It's a little like, Oh, wow. Going from nobody to well, but anyway, but he makes a joke. I think it's in respect to Kuyper. He says, like, like the criterions are the reforms set out to sort of conquer the world and they conquered Sioux City, Iowa or something? Like, like these. And yeah. Or wherever Dordt is. I don't remember where Dordt is in Iowa. But yeah, anyway, so there's that. But but so which also raises the question of that, like, what? And this also makes me think of Andrew Walz, who talks about the translation of Christianity into new contexts, like that what I found so compelling about his sort of theorizing about this was that the gospel when it goes into a new culture, it can also bring critiques back on the host culture. So that is like, it seems like the power of a book like this for contemporary Christians in the United States, say, which I assume are many of my listeners. It might be, you know, in what ways do the Chinese Christians what ways can they offer us a kind of critique? About You know, how we see ourselves? I think you were starting down that road at the end of your last question, but like, you know, yeah, what, what can we learn from them about about who Christ is and about what Christ looks like when he transforms a culture?

Hannah Nation 49:48

Yeah, yeah, Walz has been really important for a lot of my work, and a lot of my thinking. And I think exactly that. I think that as we see Christianity, entering into China, as we see our brothers and sisters, they're just theologizing and preaching. There's, there's just so much that we can learn from them. Yeah, I think one of the things that, well, I guess there were two things that I would highlight. one's kind of a big level thing. And one, the other one is, maybe something that even has just impacted me more personally. So I think to start out, there's just the very obvious application of you know, this is a church that has grown significantly, without any political power, you know, I mean, we're not even like, zero political power, or influence, and at times negative influence and power as they've experienced persecution. So I think there's just like, the very obvious application of you know, political power is not necessary for the furthering of the gospel and the spread of the church. And like, I think it's, I think one of the things that I've not puzzled out for myself yet, because I think it's an interesting, like, it's just interesting is that, you know, we live in the United States where we're born here, or we come here and decide to become, you know, citizens. Part of that is, you know, this is a participatory democracy, like I have a civil responsibility to participate in my government.There can be there are obviously lots of debates about what that should look like. And, you know, so there's a very fundamental difference between me and my Chinese brothers and sisters, they are disenfranchised, they do not participate in their government. So there is that very fundamental difference, right. Nonetheless, I think that the fact that there are churches, you know, they like, there is one church.One of the pastors in the book, I won't say who, you know, his church in 2020 planted, like seven churches. And that's like, in the midst, like, of active, they're an actively persecuted church. And it was in like, the height of the pandemic, and they plan as seven churches, you know, so and so part of me is just like, okay, like, clearly, loss of power and like disenfranchisement does not stop the furtherance of the gospel, you know, and we can learn a lot And I think we should learn a lot back from them on that, you know, and I think it takes a willingness to listen, I think there's just, it's hard to humble ourselves and to admit, we might have something to learn from those on the other side of the world. But I think we're so like, you know, so many Americans, especially in the evangelical world, which I come from, there's just a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear that the work of the church is being threatened. And, you know, I think that we can, you know, we might be able to acknowledge that there are challenges ahead for us, but the fearfulness and the, I think the kind of sword rattling can be checked, when we look at just the Lord's like, there's just the fruitfulness of churches that live in marginalized situations, you know. And I think that that kind of then maps on to just some of the personal things that I've been thinking about, it's just that I think that so much of it comes down to a question of, you know, who do you love, you know, and I think one of a fellow that I work with, this is what he talks about all the time, he says thatthe government, you know, it doesn't just want people to comply, it wants, it wants the love of its people, you know, once people's hearts, it wants to be the answer to those big that that those big meta narrative questions, right, the big framework question. Yeah. And I think that that is something, again, that we can we can learn from them, you know, that counting the cost, and, you know, walking the way of the cross is not about these big. Like, like, let's sit down and write this, like big, thick book on theology and spheres. And, I mean, that's all great. But you know, like, at the end of the day, it's about who do you love, you know, and like, who has your affections and those then get mapped out on these bigger questions of church and state. But if you aren't clear in your heart, on, you know, where your allegiances and where your loves lie, those, those issues of church and state just kind of become dry, and they become matters of battles. So, and I think that's just where, like suffering, I feel like the Chinese church has such a good pulse on the suffering that we experience in this life, going back to the I guess, where we started, but it's a it is about our union with Christ, you know, and we live in a fallen world, and there's pain and suffering all around us, you know, but because of Christ and because we live in Christ, and we've died in Christ, and we live in Christ, like we there's to in some way, it's a mystery to me, but we are participating in his suffering, you know, and Paul says, we fill up the afflictions for Christ. And that's a haunting thing, you know, and I think the American church has been running from it for so long. Yeah, you know, Why think so much about our identity and and it just, it just, it's in everything, but we are we are allergic to suffering. We see suffering as something to avoid at all costs. And I don't think that you know, the new heavens in the New Earth are when suffering is put to rest you know, are put to death, but we're not there yet. Yeah, our call. It's a call to walk with Christ and he was our suffering Lord, you know, so

Charles Kim 59:51

Well said, Yeah, I think I mean, that's as good as places any to end I did want to ask you and If I may move where I put this in the podcast, we'll see. Because you ended so well, i It seems weird to one of a guy who taught me how to preach. He said, Always know your exit. And he said that I wasn't very good at that. I always wanted to say one more thing.And he was.

Hannah Nation 1:00:21

Yeah, Mr. Kim, you need to know your exit.

Charles Kim 1:00:27

But I did want to ask you about how you got in into, like, you know how this kind of fits with all of this? Yeah. You know, it's you, you seem to have a great grasp of Christianity in China and the history and, you know, obviously, but it just, yeah, how did you get connected with at all?

Hannah Nation 1:00:45

Yeah, um, that's a great answer or question, and I, I feel like I still struggle to come up with this the same way? Um, I, I, you know, I mean, I think really, the short answer is that, I feel like the Lord has just kept putting this in my lap. And I, so I just kept like, being involved with China. First went to China, as a college student in 2005. And taught English. I basically, I would say, from that point, through the time that I started working with China partnership, I really thought that I was doing multiple short term stints serving China. And so I taught English, then I served on a team doing campus ministry, in a city in southwest China. It did that for a few years, then I came back to the US and I worked with Chinese international students here. So my background really was in very relational ministry with Chinese. But I eventually felt like that particular calling was coming to an end. Around that time, China partnership reached out to me and I've always loved to write. And I was in seminary at that point. And they really had this idea of wanting to share the voices that we were working with in China with the global world, the global church, and it took us a long time to figure out how to do that. So I think it's let's see, we're wait here, is it? It's 2022? Yes. So it has been eight years of trying to figure out how to do this. And we've kind of finally got a lot of pieces in place that allow us to do it. So yeah, that's like, I It's hard for me to answer because I didn't wake up one day and say, like, Oh, this is what I'm gonna do. And I didn't like go to school thinking like, this is what I'm gonna do. But I feel like there's, there's been a need, and it's interested in me, and I've had the the background and the relationships. And so it feels like the Lord has been leading, and I've just been following. So that's great.

Charles Kim 1:03:36

Well, I don't don't mean to take up too much of your time. So I appreciate you sharing with us for the last hour. And despite some technical difficulties at the start, but it sounds like I need to have you on to ask you about the next book here. At some point, the next book,

Hannah Nation 1:03:55

The next book, um, I'll do a quick plug for it. It's so there is a pastor, his name is Wang Yi. And he he's currently in jail. He is serving a nine year jail sentence for subversion of the state. He is very notable figure in the lay of the land of Chinese Christianity, especially house church Christianity. He can be controversial on some things, but if you talk to anyone who follows Chinese Christianity, they'll know who he is. And we are publishing a collection of his works of his writing. And that will come out in December, about the anniversary of his arrest and it's I've been calling it an eschatological Church State theology. So it's, it's going to be very different from the current book cuz it's a little more academic and a lot of more like weighty. So yeah, this one I feel like it's so late level anyone can pick it up and read it. Yeah. Well, I definitely, definitely want to look at that and talk to you about that one when it comes out. Awesome. Yeah.

Charles Kim 1:05:19

Well, very good. So thank you so much, Hannah.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai