Episode 120: The Hymns of Ambrose

In this episode Tom, Trevor, and Charles explore the gift of the hymns of Ambrose: a skilled writer of great faith and a significant figure in church history.

Motivated by the question of what form prayer and worship took in the early church, the hosts dive into these texts that illuminate the evolution of the practices that are a cornerstone in the modern church.

Timestamps:

7:04- Protestant v. Catholic Theology in Hymns

13:33- Perpetual Virginity

19:54- The Trinitarian Formula

Episode Transcript

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello and welcome to a history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. This week it will be a conversation between Tom and Trevor and I, and we will discuss some of the hymns which are associated with Ambrose of Milan. As you may know from past episodes, Ambrose Ambrose of Milan was a bishop in Milan, and he is a convert to Christianity in his adult life. And one of the things that makes Ambrose so significant is his importation and creation of him that he for the Christian church. So St. Augustine tells us that it was Ambrose, who essentially sort of created the the Western idea of a him. So a lot of our notions about hymns and singing in church, go back to the early fifth century, and the person of Ambrose of Milan and actually late fourth century. So I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. I also wanted to say thank you to Claire Bowman, who just became a Patreon supporter of the podcast. So see, she joins a crew of other people who are making donations to help keep this podcast live, and keep it available in the entire back catalogue. And I also recently had a question from another listener who started back from the beginning. And she was asking me about origin. And and some of like the history of the relationship between origin and later thought. So I know that people are still going back into that back catalogue and are benefiting from the entirety of our of our conversations over these last many years. It's hard to believe we're drawing on six years, actually seven years of doing this podcast. So yeah, so I think I appreciate all of the support that people give. If you have questions, please do. message us on facebook.com or on Twitter. And let us know, if you if you know if you have other questions or other suggestions, and rate us review us on iTunes, consider joining and supporting us on Patreon. I have some conversations that I'm really excited to coming up have a conversation with Hannah nation about Chinese Christianity, conversation with Mike habits about heaven. Mike McClymont, about hell. And so we've got a lot of stuff coming up for you and maybe a little bit far distant future, Stanley Hauerwas, has also agreed to come on the show. So a lot of stuff coming up. Thanks for listening. And so here's the conversation on Ambrose and hymns.

Tom Velasco 2:36

One thing I'll throw in is just so that everybody knows kind of the motivation behind this podcast last week, or Well, we were recording a couple of weeks ago. And we were just reflecting on the question of what prayer and worship looked like in the early church. So we've been kind of motivated by that question a little bit more of the Praxis and a little bit less of the theology. And so that was partly the goal. If there's one thing I have gathered, Chad, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like we don't have a lot of really detailed descriptive work on early church, prayer, early church, him him into the early church liturgy. I mean, you see it that's referenced and you can learn things from it. But it doesn't seem like there's a lot of work that we have, like, like on prayer specifically or on him that he or on liturgy.

Charles Kim 3:37

Yeah, so that's right. So they don't seem to in some respects, they don't seem to reflect directly on it in that way. Like, there's not like a work on hymnody or on liturgy even or something. So which is kind of an interesting way to think about it there. They do early Christians do think about the Lord's Prayer. And we do know things like someone has basically reconstructed Augustine lectionary from all of his preaching and Augustine, so like the practice of like, so in the Catholic Church and in the Episcopal Church, and in more liturgical churches, they read something from the Old Testament, something from the Psalms, something from the gospel and something from the letters basically. And that seems to have been true for Augustine. And, you know, we can we get pretty close to figuring out what his lectionary is. We there you know, we know things about like, we know what the prayer was. We call it sometimes it's called the great Thanksgiving. And Agustin references this quite a bit. We know Agustin prayed a prayer after his sermons, the same prayer because the note sometimes sometimes his note taker writes down the prayer and sometimes he doesn't. But when he writes it down, he just writes down the exact same prayer. Let us turn to the Lord have mercy on us. Don't do. So we know some of those kinds of things. Um, on the other hand, like I would say that like one of the things that we we sort of forget is that in some respects, all, a lot of the theological debates are a response to what's going on in worship. Like the reason that basil assessor Rhea talks about, he wrote a treatise on the Holy Spirit. And the reason the Holy Spirit became so important was they said, Well, look, we pray to God the Father through the goddess, Holy Son by the Holy Spirit. We say that phrase all the time, so that must mean those are one and the Holy Spirit's part of it, it's a reflection on how they prayed. And that that will happen. So you know, Cyril gets really mad about the Christa tacos, because apparently, the Alexandrians called Mary Theotokos it worship. And so they so it was like, Well, if she's Christa Tocqueville said, Not theater because our worships wrong. And, and then in response, theater it and this is something a position I make, he'll say, Well, look, you think that I'm talking about to Christ's, but I'm not I worship and he says this, I worship one Christ. In worship, we say one Christ. And so it's like, so some of the debates of the early church are actually not all that far afield, from even like in my church going up when we had the debate over contemporary music versus traditional hymns. You know, why, why is that so integral to people? Well, it's because it's in your bones, how what you say how you pray, the words that you use, the, the, your understanding of worship, is just so deep, and your connection to God that when someone says it's wrong, or it's not quite right, or you're using the wrong words, it is deeply, deeply troubling. So

Tom Velasco 7:04

such a good point. And you know, you know, Chad, as I reflect on the hymns we've read for this for this discussion, like, I mean, I feel bad, but I'm reading and I'm like, I don't find these very interesting hymns. When I think about what I compare them with the hymns that I adore, some of the ones you brought up, bless it assurance, B, that my vision comes out found. And Candidate B. You know, when I think of the great hymns that I revere, they are full of Protestant theology. Right? They're very, I mean, certainly lots of it, that is Christian theology, much of what can be can be adhered to by any buddy who names the name of Christ Catholic Orthodox, but at the same time, there's an emphasis on certain things. And here's another thing, there's a rejection of certain things. I always go to St. John's, the Catholic Cathedral here in Boise, for midnight mass on Christmas, because I just think it's beautiful. And I try as much as possible to take part in the liturgy. But there are always moments where I remained silent, right, anything, that is a prayer to marry anything that is any of the hymns that they sing, that might include Something About Mary I refrain, right, that kind of thing. And so it's like, when I when I read, you know, some of these hymns. And I noticed that today, it's like, there's theology in it that I can't embrace. And that, indeed, is offensive to like, and so one of the things that I did notice here that I don't think there was anything in any of these hymns that I could, that I would reject, like as being false, but there was certainly like a reverence of the Virgin Mary. And maybe even some assertions that I would go nope, that's not true. Right. That is not okay. And would not resonate in my, like, emotive like faculties when singing, because because that's what offense is, right? Offense means you like emotionally, it's creating a repulsive sense rather than a, like a connection, right? I'm repudiating I'm rejecting. And so it's, you know, him that he is going to obviously, what it says is going to have that kind of connection with people, right.

Charles Kim 9:35

Well, let's, let's read a little bit. So the today on may be the most famous, and I teach this. So what's sort of funny, I am a I'm an assistant professor of theology, classical languages. I teach at a Catholic seminary. And so one of the things that I try to do for my Catholic students is go through the law prayers of their church. So I am the very weird Southern Baptist raised boy who teaches the Catholics how to pray in Latin. And what they're saying when they do it which is a weird, a weird roll of. But um, so I know that today I'm pretty well, because we use this one when we pray. But so, yeah, so I'm just gonna read it real quick. And but one thing that's sort of funny when I tell them what they're saying, but I don't always know when they use it in their liturgy because I don't follow the Catholic liturgy as close obviously. So I have to say, Oh, wait, when do you use this? And then they tell me Oh, God, we praise thee we acknowledge the to be the Lord, Everlasting Father, all the earth doth worship the to the all the angels, the heavens and all the powers. All the cherubim and Seraphim unceasingly proclaim, holy, holy, holy Lord God of hosts, heaven and earth are full of the majesty of thy glory, the glorious choir of the apostles, the wonderful company of prophets, the white robe, army of martyrs, praise the Holy Church throughout the world thus acknowledge the father of infinite majesty, thy adorable, true and only Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, oh Christ, Thou art the King of Glory, Thou art the everlasting Son of the Father. I guess. I mean, you can read these online, but that gives you an idea of the today I'm in Latin today and that almost today I'm Ted Dominum, coffee table or tea, I turned on Patreon only stead of interact or TV ominous Anjali TV cheerleader universal for the status the chair will be mid Seraphim inches I believe or to proclaim proclaim and sung to some to some to solemnly state is about. You know, they're like, so that's that's how it would have been in Latin. That's how Ambrose may have composed it. Although now we think it's this other guy. Some people think it's this other guy and I Cetus. But regardless, that's one of these prayers. I don't think there's anything in this one. That would be like against Catholic pie, or it gets Protestant understandings. It's usually the Virgin I suspect was the issue, you know, in some of the things that are said about the Virgin and another one, but that that's, that's the today Oh,

Tom Velasco 12:28

yeah, that's a day it was good. I didn't mean every one of the prayers, I just, there was a couple of them where I wasn't really, it wasn't bad. It just, it's not going to resonate with me in the same in the same way, you know, and might even have kind of like a create a sense of hesitancy, right.

Trevor Adams 12:49

So yeah, this reminds me. Like, I've read a lot of like, Celtic hymns before. And for some reason, just some of the imagery in this one, the consonant reaffirming of like, all the beings that exist, that worship God and the repeating of the Trinity in different ways. It reminds me a lot of Celtic, like hymns that I've seen. So that was like my one sort of just gut reaction to this one. I found that kind of interesting.

Charles Kim 13:33

Um, yeah, in the surrogate Tatsuya or so, now, we'll rise on the third hour. That's the one like there is a line, thus teaching that her bridal pact concealed this mystery profound. The Virgin sacred birth would not impair the mother's chastity. So there is this sort of question about the perpetual virginity of Mary, that that sort of comes into play here. But, but, you know, it's like, one of the interesting things is we have talk of the Trinity, like Trevor just said, we have this, you know, again, recognition of the central thing, you know, in one sense, what we read from Bezos Surya earlier this year, is a kind of reflection on the Trinity. But here am, Ambrose puts it into him form so that everyone can sing it now, they may not all be able to explain it. They may not all be able to have the debate that basil can surely have. But everyone prays in this way concerning the Trinity. There's another one that talks about the two natures of Christ. And so there's a sort of, again you have like and that this is long before. So Veni, Vainio, Redemptor Gentium. Come, come Christ, the Redeemer of the earth, that thick that's where they talk about I'm trying to find The Oh yeah, so a giant in twofold substance, one rejoicing now his course to run. So you also have this reflection on Christ's twofold nature long before the acts of Cal Seaton. You know, we have this sort of incipient understanding that somehow in Christ there is humanity and divinity, united. And so like, I think that's, that's again, important even just understanding the nature of the council's the nature of the council's the nature of the sort of important teachings is that they come after the fact like these are long present in how Christians worship in how Christians understand themselves, but then they just think, hey, look, we need to solidify exactly what we mean by these terms. So we make sure we're all on the same page, and thus enters these debates. So I think it's also important to remember that those are always after the fact.

Tom Velasco 15:58

By the way, that rial, what you just said, is one of those things that I if there was one thing that I would like to just get down to the kind of common level to everyone in America or around the world, not just America, but it's like, there's nothing more tedious and tiring. Now, granted, 99% of the time, this appears, it appears for people, and I don't mean to be pretentious, and to talk down but who don't have any idea what they're talking about, right? We live in. We live in the 21st century America where everybody thinks they're an expert on literally everything, and they tweet it to kingdom come. But I mean, how many people who who have no association, or have never read one lick of early Christian theology, don't know anything of the history will tweet something about some factoid that they got right? About how Christians didn't believe in the Trinity until 325 ad, or something like that, right, though. I'm not a Christian, because nobody even believed in the Trinity until the until 300 years 300 ad. And it's like, Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. And what's really annoying about that is, this kind of stuff is perpetrated by people who can write people who like, they, I almost think they're bad faith actors, where they're like, Hey, we can put out we can phrase this in such a way where it's kind of true that people will totally misunderstand it, and run with it. Because I see it all the time, on accounts from people who are either supposed to be scholars in a field, or journalists, of course, I've seen journalists pick up random things and, and run with them as well. And it's like, look, when you talk about counsels, trying to determine things like what is the nature of the Trinity? What is the nature of Jesus's of the Incarnation? What is what constitutes actual Holy Scripture? They are absolutely taking into consideration a long standing tradition, of which we have many examples that support the tradition. Right? You I mean, you don't have to read much to know that. A huge percentage of people in the two hundreds who were Christians believed in the Trinity, right. I mean, you know, it's like, just find the literature and read it. It's the language that they were using. And so it's it's really frustrating. So it's a really good point, Chad, just that you look at the him that he and you can see the theology, even before it's determined by some counsel. I do want to add one more thing, Chad, just because you brought up the one the the verse there and young surrogate ter, Tia, I do want to also point out that in in Vinnie Redemptor, in that song, there's also another thing that seems to perpetuate the, the notion of the perpetual virginity. And that's in the third verse, it says, The virgin's womb that burden gained, its virgin honor still unstained. And again, I disagree with that. So if I'm going to sing a hymn, where there's a doctrine that I don't agree with, that's going to always set with me a little incorrectly, but I also see Protestant hymns and worship songs that have doctrines that I disagree with. I think my big concern is when when I sing a Catholic hymn is that at times, it sounds like I'm also in a sense, singing an honorific to the Virgin, which for me that and like, I don't mean offensive Catholic listeners or orthodox listeners, but as a Protestant, that strikes me as empires. And so for me, I have just that emotional reaction against that. Which these two hymns I don't know that they necessarily carry that on, but I felt just a hint of it. Yeah,

Trevor Adams 19:54

I had one question about these overall, and it's because I see it in a A lot of the hymns that I sync today too, so maybe you can answer this for me chat or maybe it'll be like, I don't know. But why is it pretty customary? And I think it's in three of these to end specifically with the Trinitarian formula in some way.

Charles Kim 20:19

I don't know. Other than that, that's always the practice. But okay, whenever I mean, in all Roman Catholic prayer, you in in, you know, the senior crew chiefs and nominate Patri said, feely, it's really to Sunday. I mean, that's just like, every prayer should end with that, like, Trinitarian. I mean, I don't know.

Trevor Adams 20:39

Okay, that was kind of my theory was just because you begin, it's often like you begin and in prayers that way. And in the Trinitarian formula, so I was wondering if like, that was why you ended a hymn that way is because it was like ending ending the prayer. Okay.

Tom Velasco 20:52

I will add, Trevor, don't forget, we have read a lot of theology over these last I mean, at this point, several years, because especially as we've started getting much slower at producing content, that is, me and Trevor on the me and Trevor's right, Chad maintains a pretty robust content production, but is that the stuff we've read, and I've actually limited this in previous episodes, is almost always obsessed with Trinitarian formulation, so clearly is on the forefront of everybody's minds.

Trevor Adams 21:25

I think it's, it's cool. I think when I first refers to this podcast, who I was a little bit obsessed with the Trinity at the time, so yeah, whereas now I am sort of like this is a well worn topic and but it makes sense. It definitely is one of the most unique things about Christianity and probably in their culture at the time would have been one of the most unique things about religion.

Charles Kim 21:51

Yeah. Well, I enjoy talking about something and reading something a little different. I do encourage all listeners to read them just as a piece of it, you know, sort of interest. Also, there's a line attributed to Augustine, although from what I can tell, he never actually said it. Which is qui Bennett contact beasts loud at so whoever sings well praises twice. And so you sort of do double duty of your honor and praise to God if you sing it. And so it seems fitting with Agustin 's overall theology, but I don't know that he ever actually made the quip but

Transcribed by https://otter.ai