Episode 89: Interview with Dr. Vince Bantu

This week I am pleased to offer to you a conversation I had with church historian and missiologist Dr. Vince Bantu. Our conversation ranges from discussing Dr. Bantu's academic background to his passion for the Gospel and evangelism for people who reject the Gospel as too Western. I hope you enjoy this is as much as I did.

Timestamps:

10:14- Bantu’s New Book

18:05- Missiology

30:53- Heritage in Church Services

Episode Transcription

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello, and welcome to a history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. This week, we'll be doing something a little bit different as I'm going to be interviewing Dr. Vince ban too. And so this will not have Tom and Trevor, and nor will this be the Africans against the world stream of the class that I was teaching. But this will just be a conversation that I have with Dr. Bantu, about, in part about his book, a multitude of all peoples, recently published with InterVarsity press a multitude of all peoples engaging ancient Christianity's global identity. And Dr. Bantu is a professor at Fuller Seminary. He is also the head of the Meachem School of Hama note as and I will be teaching there as well actually this fall. That's how I got to know Dr. Bantu. So I'm really excited about this interview, because it both combined some of Dr. Ban Tues more academic pursuits, but also tells about his story of faith a little bit, and about how he sees his historical and missiological research as a kind of evangelical tool for people, especially Black and African American people, and how the recognition that Christianity is a global religion, and has its roots in ancient Africa and Asia, how this is important, because this is the gospel is not just Eurocentric, it is not just a Western creation. It existed long before. Those kinds of ideas. So I think this will be a really interesting conversation. I hope that you enjoy it. So if you have any comments, please feel free to leave them on the Facebook page. And I hope to be doing more kinds of interviews as we go along. I'm trying to work some of those out. But anyway, it was an absolute pleasure to speak with Dr. Bantu about his book and about his research and even his life of faith and how he sees that, those things overlapping. So hope you appreciate this conversation and look for it, look out for a copy of his book, you know, you can get it at places where books are sold. That is a multitude of all peoples engaging ancient Christianity's global identity. So here's my conversation with Dr. Vince Ben, too. But anyway, I have with me today, Vince ban too. And he has a new book that was just released in March, it looks like a multitude of all peoples engaging ancient Christianity's global identity. And Dr. I guess, professor, and Dr. Vince Bantu is a professor of church history and Black Church Studies at Fuller. He is also the head of a of a really interesting theological school, the Meachem School of Haman, not where I will be teaching actually some Hebrew as well, this coming year. And that's a pretty neat initiative in St. Louis, to try to help. Let's see, he says he provides theological education for urban pastors and leaders. So I'm pretty, pretty excited to just be a little small part of that with Dr. Mann, too. But But yeah, I've read, I haven't read every single word, but I've looked over his new book and really found it fascinating it is. I mean, I'll let Vince say what he how he kind of imagines the audience, but it's in the academic side of things. And it is, I was like, you know, I guess even even as an academic who uses footnotes, I was like, man, Vince did his research. Like, it's, you know, unpublished dissertation level, like, I mean, for, you know, such a disparate amount of sources. I mean, I could almost just start maybe by asking, like, how did you go about tackling such a diverse set of languages, texts? You know, I mean, like, I focused just on Latin, North African Christianity and St. Augustine, and here, you know, your, you know, I know, this is more than your dissertation. But, man, you cover a lot of ground. And so you know, that, I mean, that'll that alone impressed me, but But even more than that, I think the book is going to be really helpful for people who want to see the church see the Christian church for what it is much, much broader than then sort of a Western, Western European religion, which has come to be known for various reasons, part, some of which you outlined in the book. But yeah, how was that tackling this broad of a subject?

Vince Bantu 4:36

Yeah, no. Well, I appreciate you appreciate the Yeah, the compliments and yeah, hope. Yeah, hope, hopefully, it will be helpful. And I was pretty nervous, especially about really trying to approach areas that I'm not as familiar with. And, you know, even before we were talking a little bit about our academic background, and, you know, I think one thing that was helpful was the background that I had I originally got, like hooked into a lot of this, you know, early Christianity especially in in Africa when I was originally it shouldn't Coptic and the history of the Coptic church but then I ended up doing my graduate studies at the Catholic University of America and they they have a department there for Christian oriental research and and and you know languages that are from the kind of this part of the world like early Christian languages from the Middle East and Africa and and so that I think that helped me to really have a little bit of a broader understanding of different communities like in in like that were kind of connected to the early Coptic speaking world but also the early Syriac Christian context and the different cultures and languages that, that it connected to, but, but also I was really, I was really blessed to just have some relationships with people that I could with it, you know, with it being kind of, like you said, like a hybrid book of something that is kind of, you know, academic, like, certainly on undergraduate, and maybe even on a graduate like, you know, kind of client, like survey class would be maybe helpful, not as not as deep as maybe specialists in these different areas, but, but it was really helpful to have some of those specialists look at some of those chapters, especially, you know, in areas where I'm wanting to learn more myself about, like, you know, early Christianity in the Sogdian, language or, or Persian or, or Chinese or some of these different areas that I really don't have a whole lot of expertise in, but just some general knowledge because of my, my work with Syriac. And so it was really helpful to also have some of them looking at it and giving me some, some tips and some, some feedback. And that Yeah, I think that was that was that was helpful as well.

Charles Kim 6:44

Awesome. Yeah, very good. Well, yeah. So a couple of the things you even mentioned, there were some of the questions that I had while I was reading. But what so you were your PhD is actually the program was called Semitic and Egyptian languages, is that correct?

Vince Bantu 7:04

That's right. Yeah. Yeah, a Catholic view in DC there, they have this department. That's the actually goes back to the founding of the university. And, you know, one of the founding presidents had like a straw, also a strong interest in research background, and in what they call, I guess, oriental Christianity. And I think that's a bit of a of a dated and problematic term and, like modern parlance, but But you know, you know, even even a lot of churches and heritage communities use the taint of the term oriental orthodoxy. And so it's yeah, it's like a, it's an it's an academic department, the Department of Semitic and Egyptian languages. And then also, it's the Institute for Christian oriental research that that CO publishes the, the CSCO volume, the corpus scriptorum, Christianorum, orientalia, which is, you know, probably the best, best resource out there and really in the world for for publishing, editing, and publishing and translating into modern languages, a lot of these texts that are from these different languages, and then it's also the department, their academy was also a rare collections library, where there's a lot of manuscripts and I feel really jealous because it was actually after I graduated pretty semi recently, in 2015, that it was like right after that, that we actually we already had a lot of different Coptic and Syriac and Christian Arabic manuscripts. But But right after I graduated, they actually got a large amount, I think, maybe the largest in the United States of Ethiopic manuscripts in and so now there's now now that our little our little modest department there is actually not one of the centers in the US for Ethiopic manuscripts. So I'm a little jealous, they wait. So I graduated, I kind of feel when I was growing up. And when I when I grew up and moved away for college. I feel like that was when my parents started really fixing up the house and making the nice.

Charles Kim 8:50

That's pretty good. Um, well, one of my questions like just looking at your your book, I was actually surprised at first that it was the term missiology was associated with it, because I knew that you've done some sort of, like, like you say, the research at Catholic you which was more church history, or sometimes, you know, well, I guess it's not a sort of like early Christian studies, that sort of thing, Patristics and nobody there. Nobody in my program ever talks about Misha missiology. So I was familiar with Andrew walls work because of a PhD seminar I took while I was at Princeton seminary with Dr. Jung and Richard Young, and we we did a little bit of Andrew walls. And so we call that missiology. And that's what Andrew walls is kind of famous for. So, you know, could you just talk a little bit about the overlap and why these two disciplines don't often talk to each other or think about themselves as associated? I mean, like, once I was reading your book, I was like, oh, yeah, this is fairly self evident that Miss theology and church history We are overlapping and even reading a little bit of walls and sauna. You see that. But that's just not something at least at SLU that we talked about very often, or even kind of word that I hear very much at, say the North American patristic society.

Vince Bantu 10:14

Yeah, yeah. No, that's exactly right. And it was, you know, it's, it's funny we were, we were talking earlier about our kind of common history of Princeton and another Princeton grad, who was one of my editors for this book is Scott Sundquist. And we, we just, we just missed each other actually, because he, he was the dean of the School of integral studies at Fuller at where I'm teaching now. But he actually, as I was entering he same year, he actually just went to become the president of my alma mater, so so much cross cross connections, but he's now the new president of Gordon Conwell seminary, and I was so privileged, that he was the closest editor that was really looking at this book, and that that did the closest read of, or just the closest kind of amounts of content editing and interacting with the ideas of the book, I couldn't have had a better choice for that. Because really, and he's someone I looked up to, for a long time and read a lot of his work. And because he, he made the that I'm aware of, he's the only other scholar that that that kind of ride that same fence of, of early Christianity and missiology, but like, specifically early Christianity, in like the Syriac and kind of Near Eastern Christian history, he also mentioned Prince because he also was a graduate, he got his PhD from Princeton. And, and he, you know, his, he's a specialist also on Syriac, and early Syriac Christianity, but he was, you know, he's also much of his writing, the majority of it has been in missiology. And so it's been really cool to kind of follow in his footsteps in bridging those things together. And, you know, in an even deeper way, I think, at least in publishing, because a lot of his work has been more focused on more contemporary and modern missiology. And I, I really, really like him also, in a similar way, want to bridge those two things. And, and I almost feel like the, the missiology side of it is kind of just coming from my, my background. I mean, obviously, as you mentioned, like, my I mean, you know, like you mentioned the, you know, naps and a lot of the different you know, I guess academic societies that I run in are often, you know, early Christianity where, like you said, there's not a whole lot of interest or talk about missiology. And, but I just feel like the missiological side of it, the or the way that I approach early Christianity is from a really missiological standpoint, I just think it has to do with my upbringing as a, as a Christian, you know, growing up as a young believer in St. Louis, you know, like yourself, and, and then go into Wheaton and Gordon Conwell, and, and, you know, coming into coming into my graduate studies, I just, the whole reason I even got into, got interested in this whole history is actually, I think, a similar reason as to why, at least from what I've been seeing, most of the people who've been interested reading the book are also interested in, which is like, people are, I think, you know, people are, you know, especially in the African American community, like myself, are really interested in the idea that Christianity has been a global religion from the beginning, because, especially for folks in the African American community, you know, when we, especially those that are wrestling with issues of like Christianity and cultural identity, you know, there's a common perception, especially in non Christian and non Christian context, in the black community, that Christianity is a white man's religion, that and the inescapable reality that, that the introduction of Christianity for African American people was in slavery and colonialism. And so and, you know, I've also I also worked a lot with a lot of indigenous communities. And, and there's a similar dynamic there, where, again, Christianity is associated with, again, the reality that its introduction into indigenous communities in the Americas, and in South Pacific was, you know, was through colonialism and, and oppression. And so there's this, there's this ugly history, and there's sometimes it can be this kind of totalizing concept, that, that that's all that Christianity is that Christianity in, in its core is essentially just an extension of, of Western colonialism. And so, so for me, when I, I already been interested in issues of missiology. And, and contextualization. And again, in college and, and under, and in seminary, I was like very much interested in wanting to combat this idea as a pastor, and as a as a Christian and as a as a, as a, as a, and as an evangelist. I just was really, and I guess as a beginning theologian, I was just really interested in how can we, as Christians, and as academics really combat this idea and really understanding present the fullness of what Christianity is and, and when I, when I was in my first year of seminary at Gordon Conwell that took a trip to Egypt. And that was my first introduction to this whole, this whole branch of history. I mean, beginning again with with Egypt, but then again, that kind of snowballed and opened up into all these other branches of Christian history and I And I was just I felt like I found my answer. I felt like I found, you know, like the, the the the answer I was looking for because again, my and I was also, you know, in seminary mentioned Andrew walls like llaman Sana, Philip Jenkins like a lot of these these writers, you know neigbour a lot of these different missiologists were very much framing a lot of my concerns and passions for the need for contextualization. And the need to represent Christianity in the fullness of what it is. And I think the thing that I found most appealing about the ancient history was that, you know, a lot of even even a lot of missiologists people I respect and are my heroes, I think sometimes there's a there, there can be almost maybe an accidental, kind of re kind of re centering things on the west where we and I think all you know, all institutions of theological education, I think sometimes we struggle with this where we often talk about missiology, or global Christianity or world Christianity or, you know, questions of contextualization, we often talk about those in the modern world. And we, I mean, we even we even construct your classes that way, that kind of we, we have classes on early Christianity, medieval Christianity, reformation. And then it's not to the modern world where we start talking about global Christianity or world Christianity. And I think that was what really took me with this is to say that maybe my book is meant to kind of be a helpful addition to that missiological corpus and say, Hey, like, you know, questions of missiology. And questions of global Christianity are not only modern concerns, but that that actually is an ancient conversation as well.

Charles Kim 16:35

Yeah, wow. Yeah, indeed, I thought it was, it was definitely a cool way to see some of the stuff that I had read, framed, you know, in that, in that way with talking a bit about the the way that it spread and the indigenization question. So one, like one other thing that you that you tackle in this, in this work, and it comes, some of it comes, even in the conclusion, too. But you sort of you asked this, you put, you put it also in the frame of sort of political theory or social theory, and you talk a little bit about identity politics, and how that has created the misperception. The the false notion that Christianity is a white, Western European religion. So could you talk a little bit about, you know, how you became sort of, was that just sort of an interested interest of your own that you are reading? Because, again, you know, if I think about, like, how, like I said, How I was sort of trained, we didn't talk about identity politics, very much in the ancient world, we didn't talk about political or social theory all that much. It was just who was in power, you know, what did they what was the theological question, that sort of thing? A lot less about a lot, you know, not with the same sort of frame. So could you could you talk a little bit about that I really thought that was, was an interesting and helpful way to look at it.

Vince Bantu 18:05

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I, that's a great question. And yeah, I mean, I, I similarly, you know, in a lot of my, you know, training as well. Didn't, you know, didn't see that, that framing as well. And so it's almost been like, yeah, the, the missiological kind of values and, and kind of interest in just in me as a Christian are really, and then also me, you know, being trained as a, you know, as a, as a historian and someone who works with languages and literature's in early Christianity, those those definitely were not, I mean, even like, and I had a great time and I really loved my, my mentors and advisors, a Catholic you but I mean, yeah, certainly, with with me bringing anthropological and missiological methodology, even into my dissertation in my studies, in like early Egyptian and early Coptic Christology, which is my dissertation topic, but then, but fusing that with anthropological methodology was definitely something that even my advisors were kind of like, well, yeah, that's kind of interesting. And we'll, but I was, again, I was blessed to, like, a allowed me probably to do it, but it was definitely a bridge that I was kind of, almost, I felt like I was kind of just making, you know, just by the leading of the Lord and

and yeah, it really I mean it, but it really was a leap of move of the Lord because I, you know, my, again, my all my, my scholarship and my interest in early Christianity are pretty much rooted completely in my desire for evangelism and sharing the gospel and in ministry, and again, it's really kind of it really comes down to really wanting to, you know, help help people to know that again, Christianity is for them, the gospel is for them, and that the Christian tradition has been diverse since day one that's pretty much the pretty, like narrow focus that my interest in early Christianity kind of stays within and all of my All of my interest. I mean, you mentioned Augustine, and I'd love to talk to you later about this project I'm working on right now about just, you know, the whole question about Augustine and, and donut ism and the, you know, the whole friend theory and like, but, you know, that's something that that's of interest to me, because that cuts to the core of questions about, again, identity, identity, politics and Christianity. And, and, and it's kind of the, the question of, you know, the role of, of ethnic and cultural identity in, in Christianity and, and so that's the kind of stuff I usually get attached to, and it really goes again, it goes back to just, you know, my, my testimony and background as a Christian, you know, when I was growing up in the, in the west side of St. Louis, I, you know, I, you know, you know, grew up in the 80s, and in an urban context, and I came to know the Lord, and, and, you know, that was like, you know, in the, that was kind of a, that was kind of like, in the in the generation where, like urban and suburban flight was at its like, kind of fullness and the urban context was a was a very, you know, kind of just desolate oppressed area, and have been stripped of resources, but like, gentrification hadn't really gotten kind of picked up yet. And so, and so, you know, the hood was kind of a very, you know, was a, it was a rough context. And, and, and, you know, the church was, really in this is, I think, a struggle we still have, but the church was just very culturally irrelevant to a lot of people, you know, coming up in the west side of St. Louis. And, and, and, you know, again, that was, again, that was in the 80s, before we really had the advent of like, Christian hip hop, and, and a lot of great people who would eventually really be instrumental for me, people like cross movement, or reach records, or, you know, different different artists, African American Christian artists, who, who really showed people like myself that you can, you can follow Jesus, and you can be of the hood culture at the same time. And that was not a message that I heard growing up. In fact, I heard the opposite message that you can either follow Jesus or you can be a part of the hood culture that you are. And so I just grew up always feeling that who I was culturally, was wrong, and everything about it was wrong. And to be sure, I mean, this gets into walls, right? There's the, you know, there's the pilgrim principle and the indigenizing principle, right, that the gospel embraces culture and there, and it also transforms culture. And there's a lot of things about food culture, like every culture that needs to be transformed, and does not does not square up with the gospel. But there's also a lot of good things about food culture, and I was just under the teaching and the impression that everything about it was wrong. And that if I was going to follow Jesus, I needed to just reject all of it. And so I eventually, when I felt called to ministry, I did that I went through a cultural transformation, where I just felt like, my call to ministry was one that you know, needed to entail in rejecting my culture. And I would try to share the gospel with with other friends of mine in high school in the urban community, and they just were not going for it. And I always just kind of put that on them saying, Oh, well, that's just because you don't want to let go of your sin. You don't want to go your lifestyle, you don't want to follow Jesus. But I, I was, I think I was blinded to the fact that, that I was asking him to do something that I did, which was reject who they were, and reject their identity. And that's not something Jesus ash ever asked me to do. And that's not something Jesus asked anyone to do, completely. But that's something that the Christian tradition, in many iterations does and has asked people to do. I mean, again, going back to the history of Native American boarding schools, where you know, so called missionaries were spreading the so called gospel to indigenous people, but then forbidding them from speaking their language and forcing them to speak European languages and, and wear European clothes and wear their hair and European styles and literally core poorly punished them if they spoke their own indigenous language. And so we have the, you know, we have, I think, maybe less

intense or less obvious expressions of that still going on today. In the in the church. And so that's really where a lot of this kind of came from. And, and really, I just, I mean, the, the verse that really, the pastor's that really sticks out to me in that time period, I was like, actually, my, like my first or second year of college, where I really was encouraged by the word of the Lord and x 10. When when God caught when God revealed Himself and, and to the first Gentile, Christian, Cornelius. But God had to first teach Peter, that that the message of that the prophecy of the gospel of God's kingdom being revealed to outside of Israel was being fulfilled, that God had helped me to understand when he told him to kill and eat. And he said, well, and Peter said, Well, I won't I don't want to touch anything that's not clean. And God told Peter, do not call unclean what I have made clean. And that was really the the message that the Lord was telling me that Vince do not call your hood culture which I have redeemed do not call it in and of itself unclean because I've actually embraced it. And I've, you know, I've called it unto myself and the multitude of all peoples that I'm that I'm making a includes the hood. And, you know, there will be hip hop in heaven. And there will be, you know, John hooked up and saw every tribe, nation and tongue and that included people breakdancing and, and spray painting and, and turn in records and that that includes all cultures and so, so anyway, that that was kind of my that was kind of the, the, you know, the interest or the personal kind of stake that I have in it and, and again, with a lot of especially with a lot of religions, in the black culture and in the black in that again, in that I think it's interesting that in the in the hood culture, I'd say two very, very marginalized communities, the hood and prison. Those are two very marginal communities in which, especially in the African American community, alternative religions that are very against Christianity are very, very popular and very enticing, that it's in prison or in the projects where many people again, because of the historic reality say, Well, I don't want anything to do with Christianity. And I'm going to, you know, go to I'm gonna become a Hebrew Israelite or or a Five Percenter or the, you know, Moorish Science simple or, or the Nation of Islam or, or conscious community, whatever, you know, all these different movements, that all have different theologies, different cosmologies, different, you know, different traditions that would not agree with each other. But the one thing they do agree on, is that we want nothing to do with Christianity, because it's a white Western religion, it's a slave religion, and we want nothing to do with it. And they love looking at ancient history. So a lot of us is Protestants, black or white. We don't know a lot about ancient history, but a lot of these groups, they love looking at ancient history, and they love making claims like, well, you know, no Christian never believed in the doctrine of Jesus's divinity until the Roman Emperor Constantine created it at the Council of Nicaea. And then impose it upon the world. And or, you know, all Christians were Greek and Latin, and they all came from the Roman Empire. And Christianity was just an invention of the Roman Empire and, and a mechanism for Constantine to conquer in the name of the cross. And, and so they make all these claims that are mixed and kind of, you know, lies mixed with truth. And yet and again, most a lot of a lot of just typical Christians, even in the urban church, don't know how to respond to claims like that. So again, the hope is that the book and really engage some of those, some of those ancient claims, apologetically, but but also again, and still instill a pride and instill a sense of that, you know, like people of African descent and, and Asian descent have been central to the to the history of the church from the beginning.

Charles Kim 27:27

Yeah. Wow, that that is. That's, I mean, that's such a fascinating thing. I mean, in part because I grew up in St. Louis, too. So it's kind of cool to hear someone else's story that has so many different elements to my own. One of the things that always strikes me, I grew up in Chesterfield, and Chesterfield, I like I went to First Baptist Church of ellisville, and Chesterfield Baptist Church, we drove by it every day, when I went to the ice rink, I played hockey. And we knew almost nothing about Chesterfield, except for it was actually a little bit closer than ellisville, where I went, and it's an all black church. And we just, we never went there. We never had anything to do with it. And it was always sort of strange to me, as you know, well, I shouldn't say always strange to me, I noticed it, you know, I knew it was there. And then I, you know, one time, I think I asked my dad, and he's like, I don't really know much about it. I think it's a black church. And you know, and that was it. That was all we ever talked about. And you know, sorry to talk about, like, sort of even like ancient American history, I went to the mall in Chesterfield all the time. But I didn't even realize that there that was the original site of the Chesterfield Baptist Church where there's a graveyard. And you know, and that's there. And I'm like, I didn't even know that that was there. And one of the things that I was reflecting on when you were just talking about, like, the idea of like, transforming and indigenizing. So these are words that, like we've said, coming from Andrew walls, and I was just thinking about the fact that, you know, part of the difficulty if you're an American is you especially a white American or something, you tend to think that your culture is already Christian. And the danger of that is that you don't think that it needs to be transformed, right. So you, you know, and so I was just thinking about the fact that like, it took me like I had to leave and come back and see Chesterfield again, to see this history with new eyes. And like, in some ways that the same thing happened in my own faith when I went overseas. The first time I said, you know, it brought into relief, my own faith and then I thought, you know, it's like, well, you know, it's maybe it's not it's self evident that Christianity just looks like it did at First Baptist ellisville. And so, you know, and and one thing that I think that you know, that a lot of churches could benefit from, and need is that transforming like we need to transform our art, like my culture, my the way that I was raised isn't not sort of immune from the need to be transformed. And that's like that's one of the powerful ideas about Andrew walls is he says like, once the Gospel goes into that other culture, it can critique the one from which it left. And it's, it's needed. It's actually helpful because there's, I think, you know, you brought this up at the end. But walls uses the idea of like the different vantage points to see the stage. And in a sense, there's also different vantage points to see one another in light of what you see on the stage. And so you can look at other people and see their what's good at them. But you can also be as a, you know, as a, as a Christian brother, and say, Hey, there's also things that you need to change. So it's cool to hear you talk a little bit about that. And just like how close our stories are, but probably very different,

Vince Bantu 30:48

huh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Charles Kim 30:53

I was wondering if you, you, you know, I don't want to take up too much of your time, I think we probably got, if we stick to an hour, we got about another 15 minutes, I have so many questions from your book, but even just talking to you, I, I wondered, and I can edit this out actually, if this is too personal or something. But I was wondering, like, you know, I've been going to the journey, and we have been looking at, like ways in which we can bring our heritage into, even into our worship service. And it's always difficult, it's always hard to figure out, like how much of is, is sort of, even to Catholic or to like, old, and everybody wants things that are new, but there's always this difficulty. And the journey is kind of going through even some demographic changes. And like Carlos is our new pastor, and, you know, he has a different outlook for like, what worship should be like, and at one time he wore during Black History Month, a, an Egyptian cross, and it made made some people uncomfortable, and you know, some of the white people. So I wondered if this isn't too personal. If you could talk just a little bit maybe about like, what, like, what has changed, even like, even down to like when you go to church, when you think about church, the worship service, the liturgy, what we say and how we act like how has that been influenced by your study of Syriac Christianity and Coptic and Ethiopian Christianity?

Vince Bantu 32:20

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, like that. No, I appreciate that question. And man, like this, shout out to my man, Carlos, because that's, that's my brother from another mother. That's, that's, that's my homie. And so I, um, I remember actually, you know, praying and talking with him during that whole discerning process. And I just man, the journey is so lucky to have him. And yeah, like, that's man, that's just awesome. But, but, ya know, I mean, I, and it's, and it's funny, too, because I, I run into similar I've mentioned I've been, I've been so much discipled by indigenous theologians like Richard Twiss. And, and Terry LeBlanc, and, and Andrea Smith. And, and they, you know, they run into similar push backs, not only from white Christians, but even from other native Christians. You know, like other fact, they told me, that's where they get the biggest pushback from it when they try to contextualize worship, like they'll have Christian sweat lodges or Christian totem poles or, or, you know, different indigenous traditions will contextualize it and use it and, and other native Christians, like they said that we'll be sometimes the biggest proponents of it, say, No, you can't do that, that stuff has begun. It's, you know, like, like, you know, you mentioned pastor Carlos wearing, we're in Hong Kong, and I certainly, you know, I went off the day I got married, so I wear it all the time. And, and the funny thing is, is that, actually, Egyptian monasteries also use the symbol, and there are actually objects and there's a picture of it in the book, from an Egyptian, there's an art from an Egyptian monastery from the sixth century, where the Egyptians themselves contextualize this, this, this Pharaonic symbol, you know, and it has a similar meaning because it's the it's the symbol of life, and it isn't the cross the way to life. And so, but a lot of my indigenous friends, when they get that kind of pushback from anybody, they'll say, Okay, well, you know, what if we should if we shouldn't wear a knock in a Christian way, or, you know, do a sweat lodge in a Christian way, then I guess we should all stop putting Christmas trees up every year because you know, that author has a pagan, pre Christian, you know, Anglo Saxon Germanic, you know, pagan connotation to it and in and of itself was a was a Christian context, or the fact that we call the Lords of Pasco Sunday every year we call it Easter. And we use you know, again, a pagan term I mean, calling it Easter is like equivalent to calling calling it Shiva Ganesha or, you know, like any, I mean, obviously, it's like, it's that, you know, we call it Horus or something, we're just picking a pagan god and using it. So, like, so you know, I think you know, that's that's to your point earlier that that again, all of us you know, need to you know, transform our cultures and also embrace our cultures as well right like there's this the the two sides of a wall is talks about and, and I think that is hard for a lot of them. A lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ and the dominant culture because it's like trying to explain water to a fish

But, um, but anyway, I mean, to your question though, like, Yeah, I mean, that's, that, again, as I mentioned, though, I mean, this is a all I mean, you know, this is the reality that, you know, all theology is cultural, right, all the all, all theology. I mean, you know, theology is a human work, right. It's something that we do, and to be sure, it's in response to what God has done in Christ and, and through His Word, and His Holy Spirit and, and, and the Bible. And these are all universal things that God communicates to us through revelation, but the ology is our response to it. And because it's a human work, it's, it's by nature, cultural, it's culturally contextual. So there is no such thing as a as an art cultural or an uncultured theology, or in an every every style of worship, every every style of doing church, every method or every ecclesiology, or ministerial methodology, or, you know, every Yeah, every every book, everything we create, as human beings is cultural, because we're doing it from our cultural context. And so, and so even as I mentioned, when I was younger, I, you know, I felt that my culture was wrong, and I needed to reject it. And I needed to embrace the Christian culture, you know, and to me, the Christian culture that I saw at Wheaton College was, was the culture of Michael W. Smith and, and DC talk and Sandy patty. And, and the purpose driven life and, and, you know, and it was white suburban American Evangelical culture, which again, was is a lot of it is good, I still listen to a lot of it. And I still read a lot of that stuff. But, but again, it's it's, you know, it's almost, it's just as white middle class, suburban American, just as much as you know, gospel music is black, or just as much as you know, Korean prayer services are Korean. And so they're, it's all culturally relevant. And so when I, again, not rejecting other forms, but when I felt called to the Lord to really dig deeper and embrace my own African American urban, hip hop culture, in the same in the same way, as, as I was studying a lot of these ancient traditions, I also really connected with a lot of ancient Lee's ancient traditions as well. I remember actually, when I was starting out grad school, and I, I read, you know, one of the, one of the foremost, you know, one of the kind of maybe the godfathers of Syriac studies, Sebastian Brock, in his book on air from the Syrian, in his book, The luminous eye, he he was talking about F from the Syrian and his his whole theological approach. And just the way in which Efrem is really just so different from a lot of his fourth century contemporaries, who wrote in Greek and Latin. And, you know, they were also I mean, you know, the Cabot notions or Agustin or, you know, a lot of the theologians in the Roman Empire were very much affected by their Greco Roman culture. And they did theology in a very Roman kind of way, which is not a bad thing. But it's just, it's cultural. And in the same way, Efrem did theology in a very Semitic Syriac kind of way. That, you know, he talks about the, you know, the, his methodology of, you know, you and I talked about this in the, in the book on FM, where his whole viewpoint of talking about Rozo, that Syriac word for, like symbols and, and that being really a theological approach and of f from and, and he really, you know, he and I remember in that book, Brock was just talking about the way that Efrem does the ology in a much more holistic, comprehensive way where he understands God is communicating through symbols, or Rozo, which, which include the scriptures, but also include creation. And and again, I mean, I love sharing that with again, talking about indigenous Christians who want to figure out how to contextualize the ology say, well, Efrain was a huge proponent of using creation, and, and understanding how God speaks through creation, and how creation is very active and alive and talking, which is something very central to so many indigenous cultures that isn't so much in Western cultures. And so that's, I mean, that's one example. But But I remember also Brock mentioning in that book that F from really, he calls him the ambassador to Asian Christianity. And and, you know, in the book, you see, I kind of talk about how Syriac speaking missionaries went all throughout the Asian continent, you know, to Asia, as far as the Pacific Ocean, and all the way down to the Indian Ocean as well to the subcontinent. And so in a way, that's kind of an A lot of those different traditions really, again, build themselves off the Syriac tradition from Odessa or Hawaii, and its most prominent theologian, was Efrem. And so he Brock says that, you know, for a lot of people from different cultures, like maybe Asian cultures today who want to maybe engage ancient theology, but in a way that's a little bit closer to their culture, Efrain would be a really good kind of maybe addition or alternative that a lot of you know, Christians today, especially coming from non western cultures can really connect with. And I think that that's really I think that's really that really kind of first, I think empowered me to feel like you know, well, yeah, so, you know, Sebastian Brock, kind of like how he's saying that Christians today, especially from other cultures, who are trying to figure out what theology and what contextual congratulation looks like in their culture today. They can connect with other you know, non western theologians who did it in a very different way like Efrem. So in the same way, black Christians can also connect with these different theologians and also can connect with ancient theologians like should knew to have a trip who wrote in Coptic and did theology in a in a different, you know very Coptic kind of way. And or, or can connect with Ethiopian theologians like your use of saga or Zarya Cove are well off to patrons, and that in the same way we can connect and I, and that's, you know, to your question about me personally, that's been something I've done and have really have really engaged with, you know, I mean, one thing about me, and that's very similar to my my culture, is that, you know, we, you know, and this is generalization, like and like all things, there's, there's exceptions to them. But, you know, I one thing I love doing is, you know, evangelism and apologetics, and really, really engaging people with the truth. I mean, that's something that I just think is a part of African culture and part of black culture. And, and as, as, as a person who has been trained both in the church world and in the academic world, which governs itself predominant by white culture. One, I think one difference. And again, these are generalizations but I think one difference between black and white culture, in general, is that a lot of times black people can tend to be a lot more direct about things that white people can tend to be a little bit more indirect about, or can have a cultural value of maybe being a little bit more maybe passive, or it can kids are considered to be rude, like, prime example. And Dave Chappelle the comedian jokes about this, but I think it's true that, you know, if you go into a black barbershop, it is not uncommon at all to hear people talking about, you know, politics and religion, and you know, who they voted for, and who you think you should vote for, and, and just all kinds of stuff that again, in white culture would be probably considered to be rude to, you know, just see so openly and directly talking about these kinds of things. And so, you know, and so, you know, I kind of, you know, sometimes feel like, Oh, well, maybe there isn't, you know, maybe this isn't really the way to engage, but yet again, if you go We're from St. Louis, we know if you go the Damar loop on almost any given day, you'll see Hebrew Israelites out in the street, they will be very much directly engaging people on again, the idea that Krishna is a white man's religion and so that brings up in me my my urban black desire to want to engage right back right there on the street and of course in grace and, and love and all that kind of stuff. But but I you know, I can't my my white training is telling me no, no, that's not the right way to do it. But when I reached a new to, I see an example of a of an ancient Egyptian monk who was also very direct, I mean, he wrote a genre of literature that's unique to the Coptic language called logoi. I mean, of course, that's a Greek word, but the way he appropriates it and Coptic as a, as a loan word of many, that that that Greco Coptic style literature is unique to Shanita, where he would make these public addresses these sermons out in public in his monastery, and there'd be notables and, and people from all over the surrounding villages that would come and they would, they would, you know, he would, he would kind of declare the sermons and engage with heresies and paganism, which mostly most of us, a lot of it was Egyptian paganism. And he would try to defend the veracity of the Christian faith in this very public kind of discourse way. And so that kind of like helped me to, you know, really in a similar example, that is really the first systematic theology ever written. I'm actually working on a translation of it right now for this new project I'm working on with University California press of the, the 14th century theologian from Ethiopia, Georg is of Sigler, who wrote a book called The Book of mystery where again, he lays out a systematic theology or a comprehensive theology, according to the Ethiopian tradition, where again, he's engaging belief systems and traditional religions in Ethiopia. And he's arguing directly for the veracity of the Christian faith. And so there's a, there's a very again, very, you might say, Afro African tendency to, to, you know, really boldly and publicly and directly engage around the truth and, and defend the gospel. And I would say, lastly, another example of that, that that's one way in which I've really been encouraged to, in similar ways, but to kind of lean on these these ancient traditions and examples in Africa of Christian apologetics, and do it in new ways in my African American context. But, um, the last way that I mentioned also is one thing that's been really empowering to me, is, is really leaning on African terminology for in theological discourse, because, you know, I mean, we don't we know this in academia, you you get introduced and inundated with all of this various European terminology, like, you know, you know, all of these, you know, kind of Greek and Latin terms like hermeneutics and exegesis and, and and, you know,

like Pneumatology and, and, and parry choruses and, and, and kenosis and all these different terms, right, that some of which are biblical, but a lot of them aren't actually and, and all these Latin terms to you know, and that you know, like Terminus ante Quim and Terminus post quem. And, and it's just kind of the accepted thing to do in academia to just throw Latin terms into everything and make it make it sound fancier, I guess, and that's fine, you know, is up and even German and French terms, right, like, is it some Laban and, you know, that's kind of the Yeah, that's just the accepted thing. So that's, you know, that's cool. One thing that's kind of encouraged me actually that in the same way that, that, that, you know, white academia on this side of the pond draws upon European languages to, I don't know, to give itself a sense of rootedness in the same way. I'm like, Well, you know, in, you know, people of African descent, you know, come from West Africa, and, and we all kind of, in a similar way, root ourselves to the ancient civilizations of, of East Africa. So, you know, I like to think of Coptic and Nubian and Ethiopic, as the, as the Greek and Latin of Africa, just like the way that or maybe the Greek and Latin or the, or the Ethiopian Coptic of Europe, or the Western world, because, and so that's one thing I just have done, just honestly, in my prayer life, and in my, in my devotional life, and even in some of my writings, now I'm starting to get into a thing where I, I just really feel empowered to, you know, really use theological terms and for God or for me, because again, even the terms that we use, like heaven, hell, God, these are all terms that really come from Nordic and paint, you know, paganism that was again itself a contextualization, right, and then, but you know, so like, for example, I'll often use when I'm praying even or even in some theological writings, stuff I'm working on now, I'll even like, instead of using the English word God, which itself again, comes from paganism in Europe, which I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'm just saying that's another example of cultural Christianity, I'll often use the, the Egyptian word for God that is using Coptic texts, which is new to and new to, again, is a, you know, is is an indigenously Egyptian word, is the word used in reference in the Coptic translation of the Bible, and early Coptic literature and theology to use for, for God. And sometimes I love or I'll even use the Ethiopian name for God, which is up here, which, which literally means the Lord of the land. And so and so sometimes I'll even, you know, use exit up here instead of and so the word God, or I'll even meet him school Hi, Mundo, right? Hi, my note is an Ethiopian word that means theology or doctrine or belief. And it's often used in place of the Greek word theology. And so that's another way that I've really connected, you know, with a lot of, yeah, a lot of this, this ancient theology, and it's been really helpful and, and empowering even just in my, in my own personal devotional life, and in my ministry, and in my, you know, and also in an even theological and historical writing.

Charles Kim 47:28

Wow. I mean, I really appreciate it, that's, there's, there's a lot to chew on, and think about there. And certainly, as someone who loves Latin and my European languages, you know, like, when I first read about the medium school, and I actually think at the introduction, I mispronounced him, and I just pronounced that how it sort of read to me in English, but, but yeah, that's a, that's a fascinating and, and helpful way to think about what we can learn from church history. And, you know, from, like, really considering the the breadth of Christian history, as, you know, much bigger and much larger than that we often give it credit for, or the way that we even organize it in a lot of our classes. I have, you know, I think I sent you a couple of my questions, and you answered a lot of them and even anticipated them, I was going to ask about F from and shinui, and a few of those others, and you have already covered that. So I won't keep you any longer. But, but I really appreciate this, I am pretty sure that this is a you know, that my listeners will enjoy this and our listeners will enjoy it. And that maybe, you know, maybe this will be a new way to get, get some new voices in, in our podcast and let people know about your great book. And so hopefully, this is like a nice addition in a way to reading your book because we get to hear your heart and your passion. And so that that came out very clear to me how much this not only, you know, not only have you done the hard work of the languages, the research and all of that, but But it's all driven by your your passion, not only for the subject, the history, but for people and ultimately for God. So it's a it's a it's an inspiration, and it's great to hear it from your own voice. And so I you know, recommend the book and to our listeners and so that's a multitude of all people excuse me a multitude of all peoples events banned to be a n t u. So I'll put a link up to it on the on the Facebook page when I list it, but thank you, Vince. I really appreciate it.

Vince Bantu 49:47

Oh, thank you. Yeah, thanks, Jeff. Is this was a pleasure anytime.

Charles Kim 49:50

All right. Well, yeah, if if I can snag you for another one. I can ask you some of my questions about what what use does heretic have or some of the others Things about walls that I both love and then I'm also kind of like puzzled by.

Vince Bantu 50:05

Oh, right. That's right. Yeah, we got to do a part two.

Charles Kim 50:09

Well, I'll give you a break. I know you've spent a lot of time online and hope maybe we can reconnect in a little while. If you if you're in for more.

Vince Bantu 50:20

Oh, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Charles Kim 50:23

All right. Thanks, Vince. I'm gonna hit stop recording.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai