Episode 107: Interview with John Gavin, S.J.

In this episode, we discuss Mysteries of the Lord's Prayer: Wisdom from the Early Church (Catholic University Press) with Fr. Gavin. Our conversation covers the origins of the prayer, some difficult translations, and its power in prayer. Fr. Gavin also describes the 'strangeness' of the prayer after much study.

Timestamps:

2:42- Aporia

20:06- Communal v. Individual Aspects

33:15- Newness of the Church Fathers

Episode Transcription

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello and welcome to history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. With me this week will be Father John Gavin, who's recently written mysteries of the Lord's Prayer wisdom from the early church with Catholic University Press. Father, Gavin is associate professor of religious studies at College of the Holy Cross and Massachusetts. Father, Gavin, and I discussed the Lord's Prayer a little bit and the patristic interpretation of those of that prayer. And I learned a lot from my conversation with Father Gavin. He talks a lot about the mystery. And the strangeness, actually is the word that he uses within the podcast, the strangeness, which he encounters in the Lord's Prayer, as he studied it in depth with the likes of origin and Augustine and other church fathers and patristic thinkers. And so I hope that you enjoy this podcast and we'll learn a little bit more about the ways in which this prayer has been used at church history. And how a prayer like this that is so familiar to most Christians have can become new and different ways. And also continue to have a useful isn't a power, even though it's one that is quite familiar. So thank you for listening to a history of Christian theology. I hope that you will like us on Facebook, review us on iTunes, you can follow us on Twitter, and let us know what you think about this conversation. Today on the history of Christian theology, we have Father John Gavin, who recently published a work with Catholic University Press called mysteries of the Lord's Prayer wisdom from the early church. And Father Gavin is also a professor at Holy Cross University. And we're in Worcester, Massachusetts, that I pronounced that right Western

John Gavin 1:56

shows that College of the Holy Cross college, that's our official name. Yeah.

Charles Kim 2:01

Okay, my bad. I'm sorry,

John Gavin 2:02

no problem. Very good.

Charles Kim 2:05

Well, so I've finally got in touch with Father Gavin, because I really enjoyed this work. And I think it helpfully blends kind of the, the the more spiritual aspects of reading for the Church Fathers and learning how to pray with the Church Fathers, which you know, if any of our retrieval work is doing what it should, hopefully, it's turning us to prayer. So, so it was really a blessing to be able to get this book and get in touch with Father Gavin. So thanks for coming on.

John Gavin 2:39

No, thank you for having Chuck.

Charles Kim 2:42

Well, the first question is, I'm going to kind of jump into the middle of the work. And because I think it will sort of show a little bit of what kind of things that a reader might find if they came to the book. And because most people probably are familiar with the Lord's Prayer, but it's called the mysteries of the Lord's prayer that is, you know, ways in which one might find deeper truths and deeper meanings, and learning about the Lord's Prayer with the church fathers. So I asked him about the organizing principle of his book is an aporia. So maybe father, Gavin could give us a little bit. You father Gavin could give us a definition of aporia. And then apply it to the sort of puzzling word that we find nestled within the Lord's Prayer, epi use use, and how that how PORIA helps us to come to terms with this word that we may not know precisely what it means. Or at least there's some different possibilities. So if you if you wouldn't mind starting there. Thanks so much. Sure.

John Gavin 3:45

Well, as you said, I use this idea of the upper GI as a organizing principle for the book. And if I were to define the word, I would say, yes, it's a difficult passage, right? And poor Ross is it is a Ford a passage. And so this Apulia would be a difficult thing to for to get across, or a difficulty in general. So I also see them as kind of puzzles in the text that can be linguistic, they can be contextual. But what I found interesting for these as organizing, as an organizing principle, is that on the one hand, these problems, these difficulties that the scriptural texts present, are ones that contemporary exegesis still struggle with, right? I mean, we'll find these in commentaries, and the fathers themselves recognize them and also applied themselves to them. But on the other hand, they also serve for the father's as kind of flashing lights stopping point that they are in fact there by they're given placed there by God really, that they're meant to make a stop, ponder, contemplate what is there? And what's exciting about them as well. And what the father's discover is that not only do they serve as kind of a divine highlighting of the of certain portions of the text, but they also have multiple meanings, right? It's a difficult passage, it makes us pause. But it's also it generates thought, right? It is fruitful, right? I mean, this is even for Neumann, like a genuine aspect of doctrine, right? They, it produces ideas, it continues to draw one in two contemplation. And so that's what these also do for the fathers. They have multiple meanings, but they continue to bear fruit even now. So I saw, even though they're difficult passages, difficult things to Ford, they unite both modern and ancient exegesis. But then take it deeper in the way that the fathers do as a place for contemplation. And yeah, you brought up a great example of that in here, this this, this were a strange word that, that still we don't we're not quite clear on what it means. MVCs mean, what is this? It's applied to the word for bread artists, and there are a variety of meanings put forward by both modern scholars and and the fathers. So we can look at it and say, Is this kind of combined with the word to come? So is it coming to or for the coming age? So this is an eschatological reading of it, you know, bred for the coming age, something that will be given to us. And at the end times, is it simply a prayer of petition, you know, for our daily sustenance, right, the bread to come for today or for tomorrow? It could be based on we see, in the sense of livelihood, that which we depend on. So again, a petition to God for that. And then there is the probably most famous spiritual interpretation that the fathers would give to this that most modern scholars wouldn't hold to. But the idea of this super substantial bread, something that unites with our substance that surpasses our essence, and unites us with the divine essence. Of course, this can lead to, obviously Eucharistic interpretations of the petition.

What's interesting for the fathers is, as they grapple with this, they'll take all of them. Yeah, right. Which which is, which is one of the fruits of an upper ear, right? I mean, it's not limited like this, is it? This is the answer. But you will find Origen goes through all of these, or Jerome. So we'll find both these material interpretations praying for and depending on God for the basic necessities, but then we'll find also the pairing with the eschatological reading, or this reading of unifying with the divine substance. That's what's wonderful about these apple trees, you can take you in all different directions, it opens it up, and it creates this bridge with even contemporary exegesis. So that's why I found it an exciting way to look at the prayer with the fathers.

Charles Kim 8:53

Yeah, well, and, you know, you're talking about this link between modern thinkers and ancient thinkers, just reminded me when I got into patristic research, I realized, like how much Origen had poured over some of the questions that are still, you know, puzzling modern scholars. And I remember Robert Wilkin giving a talk here, Simon St. Louis at Concordia Seminary, about the struggle to figure out how to sort of think holistically about the entirety of Christian interpretive traditions. Because oftentimes, the moderns wanted to get rid of ancient interpretations. And then some of us who are more prone to considering the ancient interpretations didn't necessarily want to, you know, didn't want to go with the sort of how do I want to say like, often modern interpreters just want one answer, like what is the one thing that this means? And so it seems to me that what you're trying to do and what you do somewhat in the work is is trying to bring both of those together to say like, well, there's things that we can learn from From both is that?

John Gavin 10:02

Yeah, absolutely no, you're absolutely right. I think as you see in the book, I let the father state the problem, the difficult passage. And then I do look at some modern approaches to it to show look. This is not a new, a new problem, and we're still grappling with it. And then look at how the fathers grapple with this. And sometimes, yeah, you'll see that, in fact, some of the solutions the fathers come up with, coincide with exactly what modern scholars are suggesting, and various works. But again, they what I find special about the fathers is they see this as a doorway, right to to a spiritual reading, they take it to the next step, which some modern scholars obviously will do, but others will kind of limit themselves. So I think, taking it to the next step just shows this next level of fruitfulness to to the readings of the text. Yeah,

Charles Kim 11:03

yeah. Well, one and one other thing that this sort of led me to question was exactly how the father's understand scriptures. And I think you've already sort of touched on this as they see these aporia as these conundrums these puzzles as, as a springboard into more interpretations. And one thing that I like to tell, so I teach Latin and Greek, mostly, and whenever we get to where we have to translate something, you know, students are very concerned about getting the one right translation. And I always want to say, well, you know, here's the thing, there are wrong translations. But there are also many right ones. And it's hard for us to understand because, you know, we think sometimes we want to think more like mathematics or something where, you know, we want to get to the two plus two equals four. And that's the only solution. But with when we're doing when we're dealing with texts, when we're dealing with interpretation and translation, you can get it wrong. But you can also get it right in many ways. And I absolutely,

John Gavin 12:10

yeah, yeah. No, I, I taught Greek for some years at the Pontifical biblical Institute in Rome. And you're absolutely right, you, you start reading it. I remember working with Paul with them and looking at Romans and I would sometimes finish the class. And I'm saying, I'm not sure exactly what he's saying here anymore, because I've got all these things coming into my head just by looking at the Greek alone. So yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true.

Charles Kim 12:39

Yeah. So that might help us understand what the father see, when they see scripture is not this sort of modern search or quest for the one single right answer for what Paul meant. And that's part of what your your book tries to do is show us how the father's lead us into these many possible answers. And that's part of its richness. It's not just the one it's the many. No, absolutely true. Very good. Well, thanks. Yeah. So to go back to the sort of the beginning of your work, it's, it's all about the Lord's Prayer. Can you give us a little bit of the historical context about with maybe, you know, one or two of these books or, or just in general, how, who was the Lord's Prayer for and who these people who are writing about the Lord's Prayer, these Church Fathers, what, who are they writing for? And how did they understand the place of the Lord's Prayer? In the life of the believer?

John Gavin 13:38

Sure. No, I would just maybe preface that with just just something about the place of the prayer in the, in the Scriptures themselves, right. It's yeah, sorry. Yeah, sure. And then oh, no, and then I'll just Yeah, I mean, just, you know, the fathers were a aware many of these things, of course, I mean, we, of course, have scholars today will say there's an original Aramaic form underneath there, right. And there are attempts to reconstruct that, of course, that opens up interpretive problems itself, because I mean, what if all we got is the Greek? What do you do? Do you just, you know, you can come up with some pretty educated reconstructions, but that, you know, that can't be the basis of your interpretation, perhaps. But and then, of course, we have two versions of the prayer. Right. Which I found them on the father's origin is the one who really kind of brings that out the most, though, I mean, of course, we have the version and math we have the version and Luke there are significant differences their origin solution to that is with Jesus just gave them a two different occasions to do two different audiences. One in Luke, when the disciples asked Him, the other one in the context of the Sermon on the Mount, modern scholars wouldn't shy necessarily from that, not that in the way origin does, but they would say, yeah, we've got to different audiences hear in the sense of a Gentile audience and a Jewish Christian audience, perhaps. And so there are adjustments made there where we have to see, for instance, debts explained as sin by Luke, for instance, in his version. But I guess if I wouldn't say what was it for, I mean, the history of how it becomes something an isolated taxed is an interesting one. Because of course, if we look at the scriptures, Jesus doesn't say, this is a prayer, you should pray or your carve this off and pray this is like pray like this. So in some ways, it's kind of like, this is a template for you, in many ways. And yet it becomes, and for obvious reasons, I think, coming from Jesus's words, a prayer unto itself, but we can find it entering into the life of the Christian community early on, and in a variety of ways. I mean, first of all, we see how it becomes part of daily prayer for Christians. I mean, we see this in the doc A, right, that is to be prayed by Christians daily. So as an as a prayer itself, we see it in the context of baptism and the preparation of the catechumens. Some churches reserved it for only after one was baptized. But then you have some fathers like Augustine, or Peter Kazhagam, who allow them to preach it in advance. And it's very moving to because it, you, they can pray it, because they can begin to call God Father in anticipation, because they may not live to the moment of their baptism, they may know. But their intention to get there means that even now, I mean, you can imagine the constellation that catechumen has hearing that that even now, okay, you can begin to call God Father as you prepare to enter the sacred waters. Right. So that's wonderful. And we see that early on. Liturgy, becoming part of the liturgy, I mean, the earliest reference that we have, for certain of it appearing in the liturgy is with Cyril of Jerusalem in the fourth century, though, many scholars would see in the scriptural versions themselves, very versions prepared for for communal prayer, and liturgy. So it may be, even though we have that first real reference and Cyril of Jerusalem, so there is there's that element. And then, in fact, we do see it being used as a model for prayer, right? Mean, origins on prayer, especially,

looks at it in that way, how we are what we are to ask for what kind of petitionary prayer, what kind of attitude should we have in prayer in this relationship to God, God is father, right? It therefore it not only is a prayer itself, but should be the the kind of model for every other form of prayer, individually, or communally that we would have. So I think the fathers his results, see the prayer in all of these contexts, right. And when they write on it, and they explain it, of course, some of the works of the fathers, it's within a larger work on prayer, say, especially origin Cyprian, and so on. But the times it's it's a dedicated work just to the, the Lord's Prayer, so Maximus, the confessor, for instance. But I think it's always seen within that larger context, are those various contexts that it has entered into the Christian community in the life of the community?

Charles Kim 19:20

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting to think about, like you say, whether or not it's given beforehand or after or during the liturgy, and I had never thought about the precise question of, you know, why is it that we excerpt it from the New Testament as a standalone thing, or at least who was the first to do such who was the first like, and as you say, the dedicate has has a version of it as well, that shows more of a not not strictly speaking, liturgical, but more community use. And that's, yeah, that's really interesting and helpful.

John Gavin 19:54

Yeah, no, it's it. It you don't know when you look at the scripture of Texas. Oh, is this like, oh, by the context? Does would it have a life like this as a separate thing? Yeah.

Charles Kim 20:06

Yeah. Well, and so one of the, yeah, one of the questions like, the reason I was asking that question was, you know, bringing out the, the use of the Lord's Prayer as, as like for as for Gustin as a way of preparation for becoming a Christian, and he would also teach the Apostles Creed, as if I remember correctly. And so he would like these would be various things that one would come to learn, as one prepared to be a Christian, right. So you give some kind of a sermon to say, these are the things he, you know, tried to do, you know, to offer over to the newcomers in the faith. And one of the interesting things about the Our Father is that it's a we and so our Father who art in heaven, but then there's also the sort of I have, I believe, although I guess there are some versions of it that have it as we as well. Or early on. But, you know, could you speak a little bit about this communal aspect of the prayer, versus sort of the individual like, in one respect, you might see the saying The apostles creed as a little bit more individualistic? I believe in one God, the Father almighty, although, of course, it is done corporately, usually, but then the sort of the we have the Our Father, so anyway, speak sort of to that communal element versus sort of the individual, individualized element?

John Gavin 21:31

Sure, sure. Now, that's a really interesting question to bring those two together or insight, I think, yes, of course with the Creed's. You're right, we do have the the I credo, but also with the if we look at the Nicene Creed, the Casteel Amen. Right. It's it's a statement of counsel fathers, but but it does become both communal and personal. What's interesting, I think, if to ground that, is to see how they are similar in this sense, on the one hand, they both are what we could call Compendia of Christian teaching. I mean, that's what Cyprian calls it. Right? It is, it they our father is a summary of the best of Christian teaching of Christian doctrine, as would be the creed. And so they are both similar in that way. It's it unifies Christian belief. And then also we see how they enter into the liturgical life of the church, right? I mean, the the communal prayer of the church. So as I mentioned earlier, yes, I mean, we see certainly how they our father enters into the liturgy in the fourth century, but so will the creed. Later in the fifth, so these become part of the liturgical life of the church. And that sense, they become communal as a united profession of faith, have kind of the summary of the core beliefs that Christians hold that unify them, but it unites them in prayer, I mean, both become a communal bridges for contemplation and reflection, right. Every time they pronounced it so unites them in these core beliefs of what they believe, but at the same time, unites them in this communal reflection, that tradition. At the same time, though, yeah, it's their personal I would I would I always, when I just did a class on Creed's with my students, we are all undergraduates here. So I was teaching. I mean, it's, and I point out, as you know, in Greek course, this believe in is Ace Plus the accusative and in Latin in plus EQs. And if you really want to get into it, you can say it's into right, I believe, into something, I go into this. There's that sense there of motion. And so when I pray, the Creed I'm going into this tradition that has been handed on to me and becoming part of going into this community. I think the same experience comes from the Our Father and of course it, it comes from that word that interesting enough, always only in Matthew's version, but our right. And but the community, you know, even when I say it individually, I'm going into the community. We're praying this together because they are the Lord's words, this expression of our faith. So yeah, it's it's, it's striking those, the how we can bring the two of them together in that way. That's A great insight.

Charles Kim 25:01

Yeah, well in there, you know, in later, sort of more medieval and or even early reformation, you know, it seems that admittance to Baptists or admittance to the Eucharist, would often include, like understanding of the Nicene Creed, the Lord's Prayer and the 10 commandments would be another pillar there, which I'm less familiar with, or, you know, maybe I just don't know this, but I see less of an emphasis on the 10 commandments. I mean, not only does teach on the backlog, but not in the same way that he does about the Lord's Prayer and the Apostles Creed. Those are the more foundational kind of catechetical tools moreso than the 10 commandments, at least in my recollection, do you know of any, like use of the 10 commandments in that way?

John Gavin 25:51

That's interesting. I mean, certainly they come up, but I don't think somebody's using the Beatitudes more than something in many cases than that, to commands are certain linking with other texts. But yeah, I don't I can't think off the top my head of them necessarily being used in that way. Again, I have to go back and look at

Charles Kim 26:11

Yeah, just as we were talking, it struck me that that was another kind of pillar of instruction later on in Christian. That's, yeah. Well, one thing. Okay, so I'm gonna sort of shift gears here. And I've made father Gavin aware of this question. So at the podcast, one of the things that I want to start leaking in is this question. That's sort of off topic, but maybe it'll generate some interesting reflection. So what is what is one idea or truth that you once thought false, or maybe once thought true, but now think is false, or vice versa? So what's one thing you've changed your mind on? And it could be of great significance? Or it could be totally insignificant? i Yeah, I've had both kinds of answers. But there you go.

John Gavin 27:04

Yeah, that's, that is a good question. I mean, I would preface by just saying a general thing. I mean, reading in these texts, praying with these texts, saying these texts, the prayer became strange. To me again, I would have to say that general thing, because, I mean, let's face it, it becomes rote. We use it so much. And by looking at the way the father's looked at it in the way they did with the Perea and other things, it's something I'm like this is, there's a lot of strange things in here, I mean, this, this prayer suddenly just explodes and opens up. And so for instance, you know, the question of bread and the symbolism of bread, I suppose, I often thought the primary thing that the Fathers will be looking at would be kind of a Eucharistic link there. But there's so much more of what they look at, in their, the bread as the simplicity of life, right? I mean, the bread symbolizes kind of the basic necessity of life, you know, food, and that, you know, the temptation, the desert is to go beyond that, to make rocks, false things into what sustain us. And so the bread means so much more than it's this, it's asking God for what we need, and not going beyond that. The bread becomes also this link to so much and it's true, they they look at all the Old Testament texts, I mean, we always have this link to the man. But again, this trust in God, this dependence on God in reception, so they open up that image, so much more forgiving of debts. Again, I'm going beyond as you said, one idea. I can't I can't stop it. Yeah, I mean, the debt idea. You know, there's been a lot done on that in, especially in the image in, in the Hebrew Hebrew Scriptures, and what it means in terms of this relationship with God, and, and this later interpretation is sin. But, but I loved what exploded things for me when I say Exploders, it makes it strange, again, was origin has this beautiful reflection of how indebted we are indebted to, obviously God, for our very existence. But then he goes on, we're indebted to the angels for what they do for us. We're indebted to the family we're indebted to, when we see in fact, our entire existence is one giant debt that we cannot pay simply pay off. And what I found was suddenly he opened up this feeling of gratitude in me this attitude of gratitude that I hadn't really thought of before in terms of this idea of debts. I mean, it's it's more than just a metaphor for for sin. I've taken something. But it's it also places us in this, the sense of being grateful to God, and to so many other gifts from God. It changed the way I saw that petition, for instance. So those are those are a couple of things. But overall, the prayer becomes strange again, it becomes a real real, it opens up contemplation in ways that yeah, I hadn't I hadn't thought of before.

Charles Kim 30:54

Reflection, I, as you were talking, I was thinking, I think that might be my tag when I put it on social media later, the strangeness of the Lord's Prayer with John Gavin.

John Gavin 31:05

Yeah, it's it's, it's strange. Yeah. In a good sense, in a good sense.

Charles Kim 31:10

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that you were saying, and you said earlier, you use the this notion of trust, just now. And I was thinking about that when I teach the stay woman EES, as you're saying, I say that, you know, that basically, though, we say, I believe, or we believe in, but you could also say we trust in, you know, and that movement towards and, you know, for me, that's helpful when I teach this to students, because many students think that when you say, the Nicene Creed, or you say the Lord's Prayer, it's the sort of lining up of your beliefs. It's just saying, like, let me just go down the checklist. So the things that I'm supposed to believe these are the things that I say, but yeah, it seems to me that definitely that idea of movement is that idea of trust. I entrust myself I'm to the this God, which God, the God who made these things, the God who became a virgin, this, so this is the person this is the, you know, this is the other person on the side that I'm putting myself into putting my whole life into. And so you know, that that gives it a different character than then maybe the way that I first understood it, which was, I just have to believe the right things.

John Gavin 32:27

Sure. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're going into the deep, that's what I mean, you're, you're diving into the depths. And, yeah, it's not just a catalogue of stuff that you're putting out there. And like your, you know, in your local Lodge, or something like that, it's, it's, and really, I think the, the way that that really comes home is if we pray, and reflect on it regularly. And I like to go to articles of the Creed and pray with them, often my own meditation, or parts of the Lord's Prayer, or even parts of the liturgy, you know, that it opens up only when we begin to pray and let the Spirit lead us into the depths. Yeah,

Charles Kim 33:15

that made me think about like, and you've kind of explored just a second ago with this strangeness. But But I asked, you know, how does this study dovetail with your own inner or spiritual life, which it sounds like in many fascinating ways, you know, one thing, the way that you were describing it, it seems like, going through the church fathers almost gives a new, you call that strangeness, maybe we can say, a newness, and in a way that, you know, like, I'm, I'm in my mid 30s, I've been a Christian most of my life, like it could get to be, quote, unquote, boring to some people. If, you know, if you just think that all we're doing is repeating the same words over and over again, for all of our lives. But, you know, maybe you could speak to how that strangeness sort of creates a, you know, a continual drive or, and sort of enjoyment in your own spiritual life and how this project has encouraged that.

John Gavin 34:15

Sure, sure. I mean, I, when I look at scholarship, especially with the fathers, I like, from Baltazar his notion of doing theology on the knees, right? I mean, it really is, I mean, yes, you can, like you can with the Scripture, you could take the father's apart like a like a corpse and dissected linguistically and make all the in which you got to do the surgeries and make the connections to the culture and the philosophies and so on. But at some point, you've got to step back and see what they're really doing. And, and as you know, the fathers are always writing I mean, there's a rigor to their thought, but at the same time, they're always pastoral contexts. It's the fruit of their own prayer. And I guess, for me, I first really became, I mean, this goes back when I first started looking at this, but it came to me in praying the office even back when I was early on as a Jesuit, as a novice, the, the portions of the commentary on the Lord's Prayer from Cyprian. And also Agustin has led her to Provo appear in the office of readings. And that's when I first you know, I'm reading these and I was like, wow, I hadn't thought of the prayer this way. And then I found myself taking these new approaches and insights and just talking about them in prayer with with God, right. I mean, that's what I wanted to do. I'm like, wow, this is I hadn't thought of this in this way, or how this is applied to my spiritual life. And then later, I did my doctoral dissertation on Maximus, the confessor. And, you know, he wrote a commentary. Now, his comment during the hour father is it's unlike the others. I mean, it's, it's, I don't know what the mystical in nature. You know, it's not an easy commentary. But suddenly, you're like, wow. And, of course, he draws some things from Gregor Nisa. So you went back to him and started looking at his writings on it. And, again, what I suddenly saw was the way that really the only way they could have written these is that they prayed over it. And we're addressing kind of also pastoral concerns they are so for me now, when I go back to the prayer and pray on it regularly, myself. Their insights are there. But also I find myself asking the spirit to take me into the directions, that they may be signposted. But how is it speaking to me now? What is what is the spiritual awakening you need to in this prayer at this time? All of these things mean, just earlier, I was talking about bread and or the debts or the sense of being indebted. The sense of gratitude. These are things that I inspires me to enter into a conversation on the knees with God. So yeah, it has affected me and changed me that way. That's a

Charles Kim 37:46

Yeah, it's a great, great insight and a great line from Vaughn, both Azhar.

John Gavin 37:50

Yeah.

Charles Kim 37:52

In chapter four, you discussed, you discussed the phrase, ima Tatsuo day II, when you're going over, hallowed be thy name. And, you know, one of the things when I'm doing this podcast, I try not to make it too much of just a recapitulation of what's in the book. Because I want people to read the book, I want people to see the work. But I did find this phrase, you know, it struck me because I thought it was going to be Imago Dei II, which is what we normally hear. But maybe you could speak about the Matok to day and why that's helpful to consider, as opposed to just saying a Mago day, which is, you know, important, of course. But that's it's tends to be like, people are way more familiar with that phrase. And not the not the imited. Seo, so maybe speak a little to that, and how that came out on this hallowed be Thy Name section.

John Gavin 38:46

Sure, sure. No, I think the Imago Dei, I speak about that in there. And I think, as you say, it's central image for, for the fathers. But what's interesting, and this is many people, when they hear image divine image, unfortunately, they don't look fully in the context of the Father sometimes and see it as kind of the static thing, right? I'm like, I'm just stamped. And there I am. But of course, as you know, this image is dynamic. And it's often put in relation to the likeness, right? So there's this potential, this potency that's being drawn forth by divine grace in this movement and ever movement into the likeness. And so yes, I what I saw here, though, is this Namaste. This imitation of God is also a theme very much present in the father's. And maybe in one of the most striking forums for instance, in Maximus, the Confessor where he talks about God and humanity being paradigms of one another, right? That in fact, humanity has me and created for this imitation of God and God coming to be with us. And so this imitation theme, I think we see, especially in the fathers with this idea of the virtues being, or reflections of the divine qualities, right, like mercy, for instance, right, especially the one that we see present there, that to grow in the virtues is to imitate God to become more like God. And so again, it is this dynamic sense of the image. But I also like the imitation of God is also that theme there. It's a, I think, really describe kind of the activity, especially the growth in virtue, imitation of God. And so when we're looking at Hallowed be thy name, what I saw in that section that you pointed out there, yeah, how do we render holy that which is already holy? I mean, that's, that's the problem there. It's like, I mean, God already his holy, or maybe, is it saying God isn't? I mean, one of the responses to that is precisely this, that, really, what's being called for is this imitation of God when we grow in the virtues. And Jesus is the exegesis of the virtues for us to divine qualities. God is being glorified, right? People see, and we have this thing, I mean, see this presence of God in the Christian? who is living that life of imitation. Now, obviously, we need grace to do that. Yeah, I mean, I mean, they're not gonna fall into this idea. Like, you just kind of work at it. And it's done. But, but nonetheless, one of the ways that we hallow God's name is therefore this imitation of God, through stasis, but also through obviously, Grace growth in that virtue. Yeah. So wonderful.

Charles Kim 42:16

It is, it's, it's really important. Yeah. Like, like I said, I just hear people talk or throw around this image of God, which is not to be ignored, you know, Nyssa, and others were, you know, used it even in the context of slavery, as we do today. So it's, you know, that neither is that foreign to the fathers. But they don't ever want us to stop there as if that's like you say, you know, static, and like, one thing I like to teach my students as well as is that you can't look at the ancient world that nothing is and see stasis. Everything is moving, you're moving in one direction or the other. For Augustine, you're either moving towards God or away from God. But there is no let's wait and see. There is no agnosticism like, oh, maybe this maybe that I'll just wait and be an objective observer know, you're moving one way or you're moving another? And that's, you know, yeah. Which is it's kind of hard being a modern reader, and especially a modern reader. So influenced by scientific method, where we want to be a neutral observer will let me observe for a little bit and decide. And that's, that's really not in a way that even Augustine, barely even as a category for this. Like, it's like, no, you're moving one way or another.

John Gavin 43:31

Yeah. Where is your love? Especially directed? Right? I mean, we could go into the theme of love here, especially right. I mean, that's that drive to? To be with the beloved. Yeah.

Charles Kim 43:44

Right. Well, um, so we're coming up on an hour here. So I'll maybe ask you a just one more question. You canvass so many of church fathers in this work? Was there any that you would recommend to someone who like, you know, of course, they should read your book as a great examination of the whole topic and give you you know, you have so many nuggets from so many church fathers in the back, you have little biographies of each and you know, it's a pretty long list. I didn't count them 10 or 15, easily, I'd guess. And but is there one work one book that you would recommend for someone who wanted to start their way reading one of the church fathers, and maybe why why is that the one that you would direct people towards?

John Gavin 44:32

That's it. That's a tough question. That's like asking a parent, which is your favorite kid? I mean, it's like, because yeah, I mean, they're all wonderful and, and one of the things I had hoped in this book, though, I think scholars benefit from it. I think at the same time, I was hoping you know, wider audience can also benefit from it and really go to the works in the end. I want them to go past the book and we actually get to the finals. I'm going to I mean in answering that question I'm gonna it's a bit of a cop out but I'm just gonna say maybe what's the best one and under several categories how's that kind of do that? I mean if I were to say like some of the most accessible I would certainly go to a Gustin maybe first for a lot of people a Dustin and Peter Chris sagas people don't think a Peter sagas but like they're short on all these like you could, you know, it's like not these long and they're so wonderful to read and delightful and full of insights and striking ways of looking at the past so maybe I would say like Augustine and Peter Criss sagas in that regard, most comprehensively origin on prayer, kind of putting it in this kind of larger context. And then these mystical readings of Maximus the Confessor and then great Unison mystical practical, I mean, yeah, I think if I put it in that regard, but I suppose if I was to tell someone to start with something, I would say start maybe with Peter, Saugus and Augustine perhaps, okay, Augustine has a number of works where he looks at it.

Charles Kim 46:05

Very Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Lots of homilies, as well. Yeah. Very good. Well, I want to thank you so much for the time that you've taken to be with me and talk about the church fathers. And I've learned a lot from from your book and add from from our, from our chat.

John Gavin 46:26

Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been a lot of fun.

Charles Kim 46:29

Thank you for listening to a history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. Next week, I will have Dr. Ben hiker. Come on, and we will discuss his book salvation through temptation. It was a great fun to be able to reconnect with an old friend of mine, so be looking out for that in the coming weeks. Thanks for listening, and have a good week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai