Episode 105: Interview with Dr. Tyler Wittman

Dr. Wittman studies the doctrine of God and teaches at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. We discuss baptists in theology, the role of theology in seminary education, and how to choose a college. Dr. Wittman's first book was published with Cambridge University Press, God and Creation in the Theology of Thomas Aquinas and Karl Barth, published with Cambridge University Press in 2018.

Timestamps:

4:10- Wittman’s Background

17:23- Confessing the Lord

40:47- Wittman’s Change of Mind

Episode Transcription

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello and welcome to the history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim with with me this week will be Dr. Tyler Whitman. Dr. Whitman published his dissertation under the title God and creation and the theology of Thomas Aquinas and Carl Bart with Cambridge University Press in 2018. We talk a little bit about that work and a little bit about theology broadly and his understanding of theology. It's a very delightful conversation where Dr. Whitman gives some thoughts on what actually is the task of theology? How does it relate to Biblical Studies and some of the other sort of disciplines within say, like a seminary faculty. And so we enjoy, I really enjoyed that conversation with him. He also gave a little bit of

background about his own life, including how he ended up in his undergrad, which was an amusing story. And so I really appreciated having on Dr. Whitman, also, I have often asked for questions from listeners things that they would like me to talk further about. And I'd like to mention one from Sarah Cortes, she asked me on Facebook, she asked me about the the issue of polygamy in the Old Testament, and whether or not early Christian theologians handled this sort of dilemma, as you know, modern Christians don't, especially the West don't believe in polygamy. And so how is it that that is so common the Old Testament? And do people commented on it in early Christian theology, which is what we focus on. So I responded that Augustine does mention it in Book Three of the confessions. And he says that it is problematic and wrong, but he attributes it to sort of just a cultural understanding in the early church, or in the excuse me in in the Old Testament, but says that it is of course, not the practice that God would would want for for all of his followers for all time. So if you're interested in reading more about that, I would definitely send you two confessions Book Three. But I appreciate the question from Sarah. So if you do have other questions, please do feel free to send them my way on Facebook or on Twitter. And if you also would take the time to rate and review us on iTunes, we would appreciate it and we also have a Patreon account, if you feel so inclined. So thank you to Sarah and thank you to Dr. Wittman, of course, for his for taking some time out of his day to talk with us. We got some podcasts coming up. We've been working some stuff out with Michael McClymont on universalism and Hans Bergsma on seeing God. And as you may have seen on our Twitter feed, my friend, Daniel Houck wrote a book on original sin and Aquinas and we will be tackling all of those in the coming months. So please do pay attention on our end, follow us on Twitter and Facebook. And you can see when those conversations will be coming out in the podcast. Sorry for the super long introduction. But I appreciate you listening without any further ado, my conversation with Tyler Whitman. Yeah, so um, this week on the podcast, we have Dr. Tyler Whitman. Tyler Whitman is a professor at New Orleans Baptist seminary. Now he was at Southern Baptist seminary and I don't know what your title is at New Orleans you do sis systematics but is that Assistant Professor of systematic theology,

Tyler Wittman 3:44

Assistant Professor of thickets of theology. I mean, within about six months, I'm not really sure my title. I think that's it, though.

Charles Kim 3:54

Okay. And just, this is one of these things that I've been trying to work out in my own mind. Would I mean, like, when you think of yourself, do you think of yourself as a dogma, Titian as a system of Titian as both as just a theologian? How do you how do you work through these kinds of categories?

Tyler Wittman 4:10

Oh, man, I'm just fun. I see myself as somebody who's just trying to learn

my faith I, you know, sometimes I that takes on more of a, I guess, if you're making a distinction between systematic theology and dogmatic theology, you know, sometimes it has more of a dogmatic flavor. Sometimes it's more of a systematic flavor depend on how you parse the sometimes it's just historical theologian. You know, sometimes it's just like a exegetical. You know, I sometimes joke with friends that I'm a systematic theologian with, you know, secret aspirations to be a biblical scholar, like an Old Testament scholar, you know, maybe or a New Testament scholar. I don't know it just so systematics works well, because you get to kind of, you know, dip around in everything, you know, and have a little bit of it all so

Charles Kim 5:01

Yeah, well, I was, as I asked that question, I was reminded of a passage that I was just looking at wanting to sort of talk with you about, but you kind of give a little bit of your understanding of theology, I guess you could say, This is Page nine in your book, but theology is marked by its religious responsibility to God, as an act of worship, feel gratitude, given divine teaching, what follows theology is not divinely inspired teaching, but rather, hearing receptivity confession of that, which was been given once for all. So I guess in some ways, it seems to me that's kind of how you understand the task of theology, whether or not it's called dogmatic systematics or whatever.

Tyler Wittman 5:44

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, theology is, first and foremost a, a mode of our religious kind of relation to God, right. So it's inseparable, I think, from the virtue of religion. And from, you know, a lived face. You know, you I get this from obviously, you know, started with reading, guys like Calvin and Aquinas and John Owen is really been impressed upon me more and more as I've read people like Greg as the ANZUS. And even some Lutheran scholastics, you know, that the old habitus of theology as it were, you know, that's kind of the theology and the subject is some of the translations put it here that kind of, I really have been leaning into that more and more that theology is inseparable from the regenerate life. It's a regenerate science, I believe so. So yeah, it's not just a head game. It's a it's a way of life, you know, to to allude to your Hedo. So yeah. It's very comprehensive.

Charles Kim 6:58

Indeed, indeed. And I like that you bring together sort of your interests in exegesis and biblical studies. And I mean, this will probably be something of a theme throughout. And it has actually kind of been a how do we, how can I say, like, sort of, like an ongoing theme in the podcast has been my own sort of like coming to terms with ways in which that I was raised as a Southern Baptist, but like, where everything was focused on, say, Biblical Studies, and there wasn't much attention to theology. And so it sounds like, you know, you have a, you know, still have some of that in your DNA, as do I. So, I mean, you know, sometimes when I'm applying for jobs and stuff, people will say, Oh, well, we want a Biblical Studies person. I was like, I read Latin and Greek, and I reflect on how people have understood the scriptures. I pretty much take that to be the task of theology, you know, and biblical studies, you know, why is this not just this that work? But I guess it's because I don't have a PhD in New Testament or Old Testament?

Tyler Wittman 7:59

Yes, there's kind of a there's kind of a pecking order, right? In definitely in Southern Baptist circles, but really just kind of like, I think, evangelical, to hate that word nowadays, but that kind of, you know, what I mean? It kind of like Western Protestant kind of higher education as a whole. You know, if they have a religion department or a theology department, it typically is like a, you know, Bible and ethics kind of department, you know, or God help us worldview or something like that. I kind of joke around with friends sometimes that theology is the is the CNC non grata, you know? Yeah, it's the kind of like, it's the unwanted, you know, kind of guests in the room. Sometimes people don't understand that to be a good reader of Scripture. To be a good apologist, to be a good ethicist, you have to first be sufficiently catechized you have to know your face, too, in order for the faith to be extended to, you know, it sources even, you know, in scripture or to its extension into moral reasoning or something. So, anyway, that's starting to sound like I'm on a soapbox.

Charles Kim 9:24

Well, that's, hey, that's what podcasts are for. Yeah. It's just a bunch of people, usually men with beards and glasses up on their soapboxes. I heard a joke the other day. It was like what do you call a group of three white men with beards and glasses? A podcast?

Tyler Wittman 9:44

Yeah, yeah,

Charles Kim 9:46

that's right. And it would mostly be true. One of my other guys who's usually who's part of the team that I started this podcast with his he has some Hispanic background of So we actually were a little more diverse than the average podcast. But not really. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, well, no, this is, this is interesting. I mean, part of what some of my questions even as I was reading your work, have gone to guess a little bit even the posture we could say of theology. And so you've been talking about the how theology has taken a bit of a backseat in contemporary sort of Baptist and maybe evangelical in scare quotes, worlds. I wonder if that's my might not even be a good place for theology. I mean, I wrote my dissertation on Augustine and humility and, and what it means to preach humbly. And we even had Dr. Matthew Wilcoxson, on to talk about divine humility. So I do wonder if maybe, one, maybe this is even a good way to think about theology like it terms of like, how does it fit in the order of, you know, universities that it's that it might have to not take itself for granted, or assume its own worth, or something that it actually has to be a little bit more humble in its posture? And maybe it's good for people who studied theology to have to think that way?

Tyler Wittman 11:15

Yeah, I think that there's, there's a kind of benefit to being on your heels a little bit, right? That kind of keeps you honest, and, and critically self reflective about what you're, what you're doing and why you're doing and why what you're doing is necessary and important. And then that kind of underdog kind of scrappy mentality can, I think, be pretty good. I mean, you can also like anything lead to certain vices and so forth, becomes intellectual inquiry. But, uh, you know, you mentioned humility, I think we have to be careful with that. This is, I mean, obviously, this is my point of view, man, you know, but, or my opinion, man, as the dude says, but it's, you know, that rhetoric of humility has kind of gotten really pronounced in those kind of like John Templeton Foundation kind of circles. And what it usually means is they mean for theologians to kind of be quiet, and take their cues from analytic philosophers of religion, and scientists who typically have a very tenuous understanding of the faith. If they're even Christians, you know, so that kind of humility is, is I think, a kind of false form of humility. I mean, a true humility is a is again, a virtue that is defined first and foremost, by our relation to God, not our relation to other disciplines or something like that, right. So when I'm looking for humility, as a defining feature of theology, I'm thinking of someone who understands their place, in the presence of God, as my former, my supervisor, the late John Webster would always say, we can't talk about God behind his back, you know, it kind of embodies a sense of that Augustine has a really keen sense of this, obviously. So, you know, I sense that we have to, like the quote, you read, you know, from the book have to receive divine teaching, that we are answerable to divine teaching, this is not something that we kind of make up or that's really in our, on our shoulders, you know, the face doesn't kind of rest on our shoulders. The Kingdom, you know, is not kind of a project, you know, at our disposal. You know, that that kind of humility, I think is is good for theology. And that kind of humility certainly can have institutional, a certain kind of institutional embodiment, and so forth. I'm not an expert on that by any means. But I just want to be clear that when, you know, nowadays, it seems like you know, that it gets bandied about quite a bit and what people mean by it isn't always, I think what the tradition has meant by Humility is a virtue, especially in regards to theology.

Charles Kim 14:19

Yeah, I think that's fair, and certainly Dr. Wilcoxon. He actually drew a connection between Aquinas his understanding of magnanimity and actually talked about humility as a form of magnanimity and a way of, of being of using your, your sort of something about you for the benefit of others. And so there was a way a way that he understood humility in Christ, and he was trying to locate this humility, sort of in theology in the in the Trinity, odd intro, I guess. And so he was trying to understand how you know, Bart and sonderegger and others could talk about him Nobody within God without it being subordination ism to get really technical, which I know you understand but for my listeners I know that that gets kind of deep in the weeds. But needless to say what he was trying to show was that humility in the sense that you're talking about doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have a backbone, or it doesn't mean that you don't understand the place of your own work or even confidence in what you what you teach what you what, you know, it's actually just, it may be sort of a posture and it may be a way of being for others, in that way as Christ was for us.

Tyler Wittman 15:39

Absolutely. I haven't read Wilcoxon his book, I actually bought it a few months back and sitting on my to read shelf here next to my desk, but he would know better about these matters. And I would, I wrote a small piece on humility. It's, it's not the most elegant piece. But it's it's out in I think, the Society for Christian ethics journal, but it you know, while researching I found, you know, obviously the Protestant tradition, a lot of them have an issue with magnanimity as a virtue. And, and, yet, I think it actually coheres with what they want to say about humility because the kind of magnanimity to which humility properly aspires is the service of others. And

in the course of that research for that piece, I ran across this really fascinating bit by John Wyclef, I hadn't really read any of Wickliffe before whitecliff wakelet, whatever. The Wickliffe boys are all, you know, typing their angry responses now to my mispronunciation.

Glyph has this great thing where he's, you know, talks about how Jesus, you know, models humility for us, because he's he's the the swiftest in the service of God and other men, you know. And so I, that's kind of where I, where I came down on one element in terms of how I defined humility. So yeah, certainly, theology is a form of service. But takes it back to love of God and love and neighbor. And that seems to be pretty important, and good and true. So,

Charles Kim 17:23

no. Okay. Well, one of the questions that I actually wrote you so so far, we were 15 minutes, and I don't think I've actually followed my guide. But, but this is what makes podcasts fun. Well, and related to this posture, you talked about Webster saying that theology can't be done behind God's back. And one of the things that I was struck by in your book is you begin with some a quote from Anselm from the pro slogan, and then you use a little bit of that and the beginning with Bart. And I was just struck by the fact that the pro slogan is, among other things, a prayer. And so Anselm writes in a few different ways, sort of dialogues and maybe more like treatises, but this one, at least was a was a prayer. And I wonder, you know, what, what role does that sort of? So like the the main point of your book that I mean, I guess in in conceit, that's what this podcast is about, although we've kind of gone far afield, but your book God and creation of the theology of Thomas Aquinas and Carl Bart, you talk a little bit, you know, you're trying to get at what, how does one confess God is God? And I guess my question might be, did you ever consider writing as a prayer or confession in prayer and the relation of prayer to this, this role of confessing?

Tyler Wittman 18:46

No, because if I had, I'm sure my supervisor would have slapped me, right. He wouldn't have he would have just like, nodded and been like, No, that's a bad idea. You know, like, No, I think that, I mean, obviously not in terms of like, writing it as a prayer, because this is a slightly revised doctoral thesis, obviously, and it's just not to do there. But um, yeah, terms of like the role of prayer in this kind of in this kind of undertaking, right. It's an aesthetic undertaking, a contemplative undertaking will prayer if, I mean, if your prayer doesn't fit your into your theological method, so to speak, then you're doing it wrong, you know? You know, it doesn't show I don't I don't write a prayer. I don't write in the form of a prayer or anything like that. But prayer does show up in the course of the way I do theology. You know, like the book I'm currently writing a book with a friend on it's I think, tentatively titled biblical reasoning, which is obviously a phrase from from Webster, known Webster but you know, In the course of writing that book, we're really engaging a lot with the biblical text and trying to kind of show how the traditional rules, for example, reading rules that get you to the kind of Nicene and Caledonian conclusions, right. How the emergent scripture, so stuff like partitive exegesis stuff, the distinction between Christ teenagers, you know, things like the distinction between the divine processions and missions and the order of between the persons and, and so forth. Well, you know, as we're kind of working through these things, you know, I'm, I found myself several times puzzling over what this passage in scripture means, or how to, you know, what the spiritual significance of some of these conclusions are. And oftentimes, I find myself the most frustrated, it's when I have, I mean, some of this sounds really artistic now, but some have been praying about it. And, and that's what I'll do, I'll go back to ground zero, and I'll just be like, Okay, God, like, you know, look, if I write a book, and it's just my thoughts about stuff, it's gonna be crap. You know, I'm, and even then if I write down thinking, it's not just my thoughts. It's not only that, I don't have that high of an estimation myself. But I want whatever I say to be true and be worth while I want it to be a fruit of contemplation. So I think a lot of times, that's just really where it starts with me is just praying, asking for the spirits illumination, especially when I'm reading scripture. Not to reduce it to just what I can kind of, you know, garner from the biblical text to write some impressive bit of theology or something, but so that I can actually learn so that this can mold me in some way into greater conformity with Christ. So that stuff actually has come, as it again, has come out more and more as impressed itself upon me as just that much more essential, the more I've read people like Thomas Aquinas, Gregory Nazianzus. Augustine, you know, yeah, because for those guys, that that process of, of being transformed, right into the image of the Trinity is, is roses a theologian looks like, and that's what actually gives you anything worth passing on to others. You know, so you can only pass on what you've received. And so basically, that's just it's an open hand prayer is to the Lord will give you something to pass on to others. So that's ties into humility. So that's where prayer I think comes in for me, and I just think you see it embodied well in people like Augustine or Anselm. So that's, I guess,

Charles Kim 22:51

yeah, no, that's great. I realized my question was a bit overly simplistic. And and I realized, of course, that for academic theology, you can't write a prayer, but it just, it just strikes me that, you know, like, in one sense, we're talking about your books talking about confessing God is God, which is something that one does to other Christians, or at least in the presence of other Christians. And one of the things that always strikes me like when I first encountered Anselm's argument, the ontological argument was as an undergrad at Oklahoma Baptist University, but it was in a philosophy department. And we were trying to figure out whether or not it was a adequate argument, did it prove the existence of God? And you know, and then did we find that persuasive or not. And that was, that was it, that was where the analysis was, and I loved my philosophy department, by the way, and really enjoyed it. But you know, just like later, when I went back to reread it in a theology department, my medieval theology professor says, Hey, let's let's, you know, let's take account for the fact that this begins is prayer, rather than is just a argument for for the existence of God.

Tyler Wittman 24:06

That's exactly right. Yeah, there's there's there's there's a, it transforms it from a kind of reasoned appeal to, you know, some kind of agnostic or atheist who's just kind of weighing, you know, naked reason in the balance or something, you know, if it moves it away from that kind of an argument to it to a kind of pedagogical piece, you know, like there's a certain kind of pedagogy that happens, I think, in these arguments for the existence of God like you see an Anselm, and, and even in Aquinas is five ways. And I think it's a shame that we've often reduced these things to, like what you're talking about, like these kinds of rationalist proofs for the existence of God, rather than things that are themselves presupposing faith and that have a kind of shaping formative function for, for the church. Yeah. Not to say they don't view the skeptic or whatever. But it's to say that's not their primary purpose.

Charles Kim 25:15

Right? Well, it strikes me that the same professor that I was thinking of tobasco Sullivan, he also said that the thing that every Catholic will read from Thomas Aquinas isn't his Summa Theologica or summa contra again to lease but his prayer after mass. And like, there are certain things that Aquinas wrote that are actually way more read and known by Catholics, that maybe even his great works and their prayers, which is important to remember, for for any of these theologians that we're reading, at least the, you know, the Fathers of the Church, right now are doctors of the church, I guess, is for Aquinas, but doctors Yes, I gotta get my titles, right, I had to learn all of these. Actually, it strikes me another funny thing about being a kid raised Baptist doing his PHD with a Jesuit priest. When I you know, you were talking about things that you learned from from your doctoral Adviser, Dr. Fatar, when would when I went to Father McCone, with my proposal for what I wanted to write about, he asked me if I had prayed about it. And, and I just remember being like, kind of surprised, actually. I was like, um, this is an academic argument about the preaching of Augustine, what. And, and, and, you know, sort of made put put me on the back foot a little bit in a good way of like, you know, what, what are we doing this for? That's cool. I like that. Good. Yeah. Well, and, you know, I mean, yeah, I don't need to go into all the ins and outs of my time at SLU. But that was, you know, that helped me realize, and for the record, he was also very encouraging the whole time. And I don't think I would have finished without his encouragement. So it was definitely a blessing to have him help work with me, which I'm sure it's the same for you. With the with John Webster.

Tyler Wittman 27:14

Absolutely. Yeah, working with John Webster was the reason we went overseas. You know, when I was looking at doing PhD programs, I kind of I just, I basically only applied to three programs, because I identified three people I wanted to study with. And so that's like, the exact opposite of the advice you get, you know, you get all this advice of like, you're coming up with different tiers of programs and applying to all these, I just applied to three programs. And I got into all of them, thankfully, and but, you know, it was meeting with John Webster, I had the opportunity to sit down with him before making the decision, and just spending an hour just chatting with him. And he was just blowing my mind with the kinds of questions he was asking me, I just realized, I need to spend time with this guy to learn from this guy. Because you just realize how dumb you are, you know, in those moments, that's a bad way of putting it, but how much you have to learn, you know, and how, how much someone has to give you so and John was great at that he was very, he could have been much more prolific, I think in terms of his writing, output and so forth, if he weren't so busy investing in, in institutions and in a program primarily in his students, you know? So he really embodied that principle that Aquinas articulates it's better to pass on, you know, the fruits of contemplation than to contemplate itself. So, yeah, I think any of John's students would testify that it's just, it's like one of the first things you recognize about Oh, man. So yeah, yeah, yeah, we definitely very

Charles Kim 28:59

good. Yeah. So just taking a little bit, going back to your book. You know, one of the like, in your first chapter there you talk about Romans one kind of sets the stage for what you're about to do. So, just a general question, what is at stake in the confession of God is God why is that something worth considering something worth analyzing something worth going after? And, you know, maybe even potential perils for, you know, getting this wrong?

Tyler Wittman 29:31

Yeah, you know, when I came up, when it came time to kind of re work it just a little bit for publication, the, you know, I added the whole bit about Romans one and stuff into it. Because I felt like what's at stake with confessing God as God right? Not merely as my benefactor not merely as my Savior, not to say Those aren't tremendously world and altering kind of, you know, ways of confessing God, right. But to confess God, just in terms of his godness, just in terms of his own intrinsic self worth, right and not, for what he's done for me to gather that insight, I feel like is pretty important for, for avoiding idolatry. So it's just, it's one moment of theological inquiry. It's not where it ends, right. And it may not even be where it begins, but it's but it's a moment in the course of one's contemplation of God, one has to recognize that God is in in for himself, right? And only on that basis Is he is he for us and for our salvation, you know. So, I found that in the, you know, confessing God is kind of a, a title of one of Webster's books. So the, the phrase convincing God as God is also a kind of homage to, to Webster, who passed away two weeks before I basically was done with the dissertation. Um, and so. But the idea of professing God as God, I felt like just kind of picks, picks up on Paul's language in Romans one, right. And I walked through this in the, in the book, I'm opening up now to Roman so I can, I can read this actual verse. But obviously, Paul's argument and Romans one very, very famous and well known, it's, it's about the kind of descent into ungodliness that happens as a consequence of its consequence of idolatry. And they're like in verse 21, he says, although they knew God, they did not honor Him, as God will give thanks to Him, but they became futile and their thinking and their foolish hearts were dark, dark. And so I just found that that phrase interesting as God, like, what does that mean? You know, and, and so I tried to show and that little brief kind of exegete exegetical, kind of Fourier right to the to the, to the argument, that what this is about what he means by that, they do not honor God, as God is kind of born out in the kind in the, if I can remember the argument correctly, point out in the in the kinds of things he goes on to say, These people did not avoid, right, when they are not avoiding idolatry, they are confusing, the creator and the creature, they are confusing, God's kind of glory with, you know, things that they see.

And so, God gives them up to these debates, minds, and so forth and so on.

So I tried to show and I think I do so I stand by the exegesis, that what what this means is, it's just the recognition that God is not a creature, right. That he is, he's qualitatively distinct from all things. I'm not trying to say Paul has in mind, like, all everything that I'm saying, but I'm saying that the the, what am I say? The the movement, right, of Paul's argument. It's definitely moving in the same direction of the kinds of things that I'm wanting to say. So that's what's at stake there is that we is that we distinguish God, right, so that we can actually see God more clearly. Right. We distinguish God from what is not God. So anyway, that and then then you get into Anselm and stuff, and I kind of tried to complexify that and add some nuance to it. But that's, that's where that's the nugget where it starts. Yeah.

Charles Kim 34:03

Well, it struck me. What's that?

Tyler Wittman 34:06

So it has to do has to do with idolatry? Is the Yeah.

Charles Kim 34:11

Yeah. Yeah, very good. Oh, wait. And as you were talking, you said, I'm not sure that Paul has that in mind. Exactly. And it struck me that this is actually kind of a recurrent conversation I have with a friend of mine, who's a pastor, we both went to seminary together. But he, as I read the Church Fathers, I became less and less concerned. Not, you know, not that it was unimportant to ask what Paul had in mind, but maybe that's not the only question to have. And, and he and I both really like reading Rowan Williams, I think it's in his holy living book. He talks a little bit about he almost uses a phrase. It's similar to what you just said, but is it in the direction of the of the of the thought or something like he's, you know, he sort of says, setting up like what you are trying to look for In the text, you're not trying to go against sort of the the flow or the arrangement. You are working with it, not against it. And so it was it was sort of a way to, I don't know, you could say put up some guardrails. So I mean, you know, because obviously we're terrified of being origins or something. going too far with our fanciful philosophizing and allegorized thing. But no, but it's just what Rowan Williams has a helpful way of sort of like working with the direction and grain of the text.

Tyler Wittman 35:33

Yeah, something like that. I haven't read enough Williams to, you know, that's not where I'm obviously getting it. But something like that is kind of, yeah, what I'm, what I would be more concerned with, you know, I mean, yes, I, you know, there's a lot of pushback against kind of modernist hermeneutics and so forth. And nowadays, and I'm kind of of the yes. But kind of crowd, you know, like, I am all for recovering patristic modes of exegesis and some some of the medieval stuff. I think a lot of that is actually more consistent with the reformation is understanding of divine inspiration. I think Richard Richard Mohler points, some of this out in his post reformation reformed dogmatics. Volume Two, I think, but but at the same time, I think there are some gains that we've had in kind of grammatical historical exegesis. And so you know, I just want to make sure that we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So yeah, I'm interested in knowing what Paul thought and so forth, you know, becomes an issue when people are like, now, you know, here's what Paul thought and now that I've really constructed the, you know, psychology of the apostle Paul, and everything he's concerned about, you can see how he's clearly at odds with, you know, whoever wrote, you know, the gospel of Mark and, and, and you're gonna need people who are just really way too sure of the of their own, reconstruct speculative reconstructions of what these, you know, what's potentially going on in the mind of these individuals who wrote these things. I don't know if at that point, you just start, you know, you it's almost like a, it's the same problem with allegorized. You know, it's just now that they've gone off into these. It's historicist, kind of, you know, version of it. But that's maybe not the right word to use for that. But, yeah, so there's parallels on every side. But I want to know, you know, the plain sense of the text is obviously the way the words run. You know, yeah, it helps to know something about this first century context, second, Temple, Judaism, all that kind of stuff like that, that helps to know something about the plane sense. But, you know, the same time, the Qumran documents are not part of canonical scripture. So I think there has to weigh in at some point, but I'm not gonna go too far afield on hermeneutics here.

Charles Kim 37:55

Yeah, sure. Fair enough. And just a couple, you know, I'll use the for my listeners. There's, I did an episode with Dr. Matthew Emerson. And he talked a little bit about the difference between historical grammatical and historical critical forms of exegesis. So we did a little bit of, you know, modern hermeneutics on that episode, which which I found it enlightening, since since after undergrad, I hadn't really done any education in Baptist, and more evangelical circles. So I was not aware of that as being a distinction, actually. And but it was very helpful. So I recommend that podcast. Also, another thing that Pilar just said triggered something I did learn along the way. And I found so I was doing a little bit of Hebrew with a rabbinic professor at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York. And we talked about the pursuit Tomika, which is like looking for the the plain sense meaning of the text. And it was it was it was interesting to hear this, this Jewish expert in well, in medieval rabbinic exegesis, talk about similar things to what I grew up hearing about, like, Okay, what is the plain sense? What is a straightforward kind of sense of the tax? And we were, you know, we were sort of, we had a sort of similar outlook, but but being raised in different areas, which I just thought was sort of funny, but I, but I'll never forget that phrase. And now that I'm teaching Hebrew again, it's like it's, it's fresh in my mind.

Tyler Wittman 39:30

That is interesting. Yeah, I was just reading some of that stuff. Yesterday, some stuff by I've been reading a bunch of Old Testament scholarship recently and reading stuff, you know, there's a whole sub genre, I guess, out there of like, historical reconstructions of like, Israelite religion, and I've been reading a lot about this kind of stuff and was reading you know, a review of one of these massive monographs by a Jewish scholar who was just like, basically saying, like, yeah, It's all right. But like, you know, the conclusions here that monotheism aren't as important for, you know, Israelite religion is like previously thought it's a late develop, it goes against the plain sense of the text, which I thought was a real thing, critique. You know, because it almost seems like the the goal of some of these things is to just kind of evacuate evacuate the Old Testament of the kind of role, you know, in the life of the church, like, you know, just layers upon layers of competing editorial traditions and how anyone could make sense of it without, you know, anyway, I won't get into it. I'm just gonna stop there. But very interesting and still relevant, I think in in every field. Yeah.

Charles Kim 40:47

Well, okay, so one question that I've wanted to start introducing that. Well, my sister encouraged me to find find, find a question that makes your podcast like someone should listen to your podcast, because they, they might hear something different as you're interviewing different people. So I came up with the I think I sent it to you, but like, What's one thing in your sort of intellectual journey, intellectual development? What's one thing that you've changed your mind about? Like you thought was true, but no longer do? And maybe what caused that change? It doesn't it can be related to your book. It doesn't have to be but like, what's like a big Okay. Tyler changed his mind about this? And what was that? It? Tell us a little bit about that?

Tyler Wittman 41:35

Oh, man. Yeah, I've been puzzling over this quite, you know, I mean, I was asked talking to my wife about this, I was

like, What is something I've changed my mind on? And, to some degree, it's a hard question to answer, because I feel like I changed my mind on so much. And so it depends upon, you know, the timeline we're looking at here. If we're just if we're just restricting it to theology, though, you know, I mean, you know, there's been, there's been several things. I think that, you know, when I was in seminary, I, you know, I came to seminary, I grew up in a pastor's home, I, you know, I learned the gospel, I learned my Bible, and so forth and so on, you know, but they didn't, I didn't know the finer points of theology and stuff. I had never read a theology book. So I had a lot of questions became kind of late, you know, I always, also wasn't really always interested in some of these things. You know, like, there's one thing that I was interested in, I looked up and I read about, but I wasn't always really interested in theology. And I became interested in kind of late and so when I went to seminary, that was really the beginning of my theological education, I feel like are some people had come and they had already been studying stuff for years. So all that to say, when I got there, I started learning things. The first time I was taught a kind of subordination, just functional view of the Trinity, and that that relates to how men and women relate to one another and stuff. And, you know, and hearing it for the first time, and never having heard differently, and I just was like, Well, that sounds really interesting and compelling. And so I just kind of assumed that was the way the cookie crumbles. Until, until he into seminary,

Charles Kim 43:29

you know, and,

Tyler Wittman 43:30

of course, I was, I was interested in learning about these kinds of things, and really interested the doctrine of God. And so I just was reading a lot started reading Augustine, and started reading, oh, and, and turn it in, and just started recognizing, like, Wait a minute. Now, this does not sound like the doctrine of the Trinity. I was taught, right, and it and I just started noticing, like, no one in any of these texts are related to how men and women should relate to one another. So that's one thing I changed my mind on, obviously, just because I learned, you know, I was reading these older sources and looking how they read the Bible. And I felt like they made greater sense of, of Scripture, and like they were more faithful to it. So that's one of the things I changed my mind on pretty pretty quickly. And, and then in more recent years, I think it's been, you know, I've, I have in terms of like, theological ethics and so forth, I have come to have a far greater appreciation of the role of virtue kind of tradition, which, you know, I got hints of in seminary, but the approach that, you know, I really understood to be kind of normative for Christian ethics is really much more casual mystic and So I think I still think casuistry is is important in some sense, I don't think needs to be thrown out. But at the same time, I think that the the, you know, virtue and an account of the kind of moral life anatomy and its grammar, that's part of I think what virtue and habits are. That kind of stuff is come much more to at the forefront of my mind as being really, really important. So yeah, this is some things that I've changed my mind that maybe they're not really juicy and salacious. So but

Charles Kim 45:38

no, no, actually, the eternal subordination of the sons stuff was kind of juicy and salacious. I'd be the I don't know, it's kind of made. Its its reared its head again, a little bit. Because the the, the second edition of the Grudem text, but yeah, I didn't know if maybe, I mean, I guess more recently, you're from Texas. I understand. Right. So I mean, I assume that you're not going to be you know, supporting the saints in the in the NFL or anything.

Tyler Wittman 46:13

Well, listen, I have been a Cowboys fan my whole life. Okay. And I've been through them. I have been through everything with these guys. And I, I do not, you know, I reached the point this past season, where, you know, just Same old, same old, I don't know. So I'm at the point where I'm like, you know, what, guys? I have? No, you guys nothing, you know, like, we'll come back when you start winning games. But I think 2020 was just so like, busy and so stressful in so many respects that like, you know, people were saying, you know, people were catching up with keeps go keep up the sports, I just lost interest. For the most part in sports. The only sport I really kept up with was hockey. And that's just kind of like bled over into this year. I think hockey is about the only thing I'm interested in watching. So I don't even know. I guess I found out the other day the saints are in the playoffs. And it doesn't surprise me the Cowboys aren't. So you know, at this point, like, hey, whatever, go saints, right? They may they win or something, you know, I honestly don't care. Yeah, and

Charles Kim 47:29

I have, I had seen on Twitter that you are a big Dallas Stars fan. I grew up playing hockey hockey was the game that I played from the time I was five until well, my brother, my brother, and I still actually play adult league together here in St. Louis. So I'm envious. So that was it's fun. It's actually it's funny. It's my game to play. I love playing it. I don't I not that. I don't like watching it. But I feel less compelled to watch it. I guess because my whole life I was always like, well, I'd rather be playing. But so I actually watch more football than I do hockey probably or something, you know, other things. That actually hot.

Tyler Wittman 48:11

Okay, so here's a little known fact about Tyler Whitman. For my future biographers, I was what college to go to, because they had an outdoor hockey rink. Okay, like a roller hockey rink. So I chose to go to Colorado State University because when I visited, they showed me the outdoor hockey rink and I was like, this is where I will live. And sure enough, like every Saturday, I was out there playing roller hockey. So anyway, that was that's a window into the kind of wisdom I had as a as an 18 year old.

Charles Kim 48:50

You went to Colorado or something, right? Yeah, Colorado State. Yeah. There you go. I had Yeah, no, I would not.

Tyler Wittman 48:59

Yeah, so I love hockey anyway.

Charles Kim 49:04

Very good. Well, I don't want to take up too much of your time. I have, of course I have, you know, way more questions that we could actually get two. All right. Well, here's, here's a question that will stick. This is a little more autobiographical, a little less about the book, but it's just something that interested me? Well, it actually relates to your book. So you chose Aquinas and Bart. We've talked a little bit about being Baptist and such here. So I guess, you know, I can understand from a broadly theological level, the import and sort of the monumental nature of Aquinas and Bart, but my question, why are there no Southern Baptists that want to write any kind of theology in this? Like, I don't know, world beating way? I'm not really sure what to say. They're just why are there no Southern Baptist thinkers that you have to contend with? As a theologian in this same respect, and how was that as a Southern Baptist attack tackling these? Because I mean, I went to a, you know, like for myself, I was, you know, raised Southern Baptist church, but I went to a reformed High School. And I loved it when we got to read the confessions and got to read a little bit of Calvin, because I was like, oh, there's, you know, there's, there's kind of a way to think about this a little bit more systematically, and in a different way, you know, like, I mean, my joke was always that, I felt like I was taught to say the prayer, and then I learned enough about the Bible to tell other people that they needed to pray a prayer. And, and that that was kind of how I'd be like, That's a way overly simplified. And that's not true of all Southern Baptists. And I really appreciate my upbringing. But that's kind of how it felt. And then, so I really glommed on to, like the more systematic theology, because I was like, oh, there's, there's something there's something like deeper that I can read and understand about the coherence of the text. But so say, I don't know, say, What will in response to that? Just, I thought it was interesting. And and, yeah,

Tyler Wittman 51:09

okay. Well, I'll say two things about that. I think, first of all, wish I'd gone to your high school because I went to a kind of quasi charismatic, like dispensationalist high school, my last two years of high school, I went to public school before that. And, you know, you can imagine the kinds of crazy stuff. But we weren't reading the confessions. That's for sure. But the second thing, also, why, you know, as I understand your question, you're asking, why are there no, Seminole Baptist figures that, that are engaged by even other traditions, someone that you can't bypass and when you have to kind of deal with? You know, I don't I don't know, the full answer to that. But I think one thing that does strike me is that you know, the reason there's no John Calvin or Martin Luther Thomas Aquinas, or, or whatever in Baptist circles is because that, that the, that requires institutional, institutional Foundation, right? And infrastructure, the Baptist just haven't had access to for a long time. You know, for a long time, they weren't, you know, John Gill, I believe, was not allowed to go to Cambridge, right. Or Oxford because he was he was not an Anglican. So he was like, basically an autodidact, you know, sorts. And even then, it's pretty impressive when you read John Gil's body of doctrine and practical divinity. It's just really good kind of, you know, Protestant, Scholastic fair. But, you know, that's the closest you get to a kind of, you know, Scholastic Baptist scholasticism. You know. So that's, that's one aspect of it is just haven't had the kind of deep institutional structures of in terms of just education, that read that kind of that kind of work. The second element of it, and this is just shooting from the hip, because I don't know, all, you know, I'd be interested to see it. Some of my friends who are Baptist historians were American historians would say about this, but look at another aspect of it is this that Baptists have less of an appetite for that kind of stuff as a whole. Every tradition has the things they're really good at, and the things they're not as good at, you know, Baptists tend to be really good at historically right at evangelism and missions, you these are the kinds of things that Baptists are really, really keen about, right. Well, that the flip side of that, you know, if that's a kind of, it's at least part of the active life, you know, there can be a kind of downplaying of the contemplative life. You know, it's illustrated, for instance, like, I remember being in seminary and having a discussion in class, kind of get me to start to get into the weeds, like maybe just a little bit, and you'd have somebody raise their hand and be like, well, now I'm just a pastor. And that's how they would kind of preface it right, as in terms of like, I'm about to derail the conversation away from this intellectual discussion, because I'm just a pastor with humble pastor kind of interests. And that would always, always just annoyed the fire out of me, because I'm there thinking, What do you mean, you're just a pastor? Like, it's a very high and honorable calling, and demands, I think, the utmost preparation, and I think you should be the one who's leading the charge and these kind of intellectual discussions if you're There's no such thing as just a pasture. Like, that's a very, you know, I mean, that's a very, very important role, like you're supposed to be feeding the sheep, you know. And so that's my, my own my own seminary classes I, you know, I tell I would teach in the seminary and I tell my students, look, there are so many things you cannot learn from me, okay? I have very little, you know, I'm not going to make you a pastor, I'm not going to be able to see tons of ministerial wisdom into you, I can teach you the faith. Right? I can give you an appetite for for learning, I can teach you how to read and think and articulate yourself, well, these are all important components of ministry. But you know, I tried to impress upon people, like even the whole seminary curriculum isn't going to make you a pastor, like God makes you Pastor, God even makes you a theologian. Like I'm just here to try to like help with the theologian part. That said, you know, when they're in my, in my classes, I'm just trying to, to get them to take theology seriously. And so I will tell the students in my class who are, you know, interested in going into some kind of music ministry? Or who are going to go on the mission field,

I tell them I expect the most from you guys. And they're usually the kind of like, what, like the music people who are like in this class, like the last class are taking before they graduate? And they're like, wait, wait, what? You don't want yeah, I expect the most from you guys. Because you're the ones you're going to be writing hymns and stuff, right? Or you're gonna be the ones on the mission field dealing with really complex discussions about what faithfulness in different cultures and Conte and religious context looks like. You're the ones who need the greatest acuity with theology. Just some extent, being a professor, I can afford to be the dumbest at this stuff, you know, and the dullest, like, You guys are the ones, you know, who are going to be really tested on on some of it. So you know. So I say that to say, there's a lot of combating that kind of mindset of theologies, this kind of saying that easily gets too heady and to detach from your life. Right? And, and so I usually spend a good bit of time whenever I can, just kind of showing how this stuff does bear practical fruit. Right. But it, it does. So after a long time of have a growing roots, you know, the, the fruits are only going to be as good as the roots. And I didn't mean to say that it sounds kind of trippy, but people like, look, you're gonna be you have to give people water. Right. And so digging deep well, you know, and I'll tell people, like, you may not understand this discussion, we're about to go into about divine immutability, you may not understand how this is going to bear upon your life or whatever, just trust me that it will. Okay, dig deep, well dig in, this is my be the only time in your life to think intensely about these matters. Just do it. Okay, and trust me. And, you know, years down the road, it'll come, it'll come in to your counseling or your preaching or whatever, you know. But this is the counsel of God. And so you open your hands and, and receive it as a council guide. So I think I had to do a lot of it, because a lot of times people just come from churches where it's like, Well, be careful, you know, like seminary will fill your head with too much

theology, and that's kind of a can be a bad thing. And so it's not to say that there's an anti intellectual streak, but there is some of

that in some of the some of the churches that make up the Southern Baptist Convention. But I think just overall, there's just a general, I think, man, how do I say this? I don't think that as Southern Baptists, that's all I can really say, I don't know much about Baptists, generally. I think we only take theology. So seriously. We talk about it a lot. We don't really take it that seriously very often. So I can't say much more about that, and probably get myself into all sorts of trouble. But I'll just leave it at that. I just, I don't know how seriously, we take theology. So that's a long winded answer to why are there no kind of like, you know, Seminole Baptist theologians everyone has to deal with. It's a complex answer. I think the things I've offered are just maybe some of the pieces of that puzzle, but that's a good question.

Charles Kim 59:40

All right. All right. Well, I just, I want to thank Dr. Whitman, Tyler Whitman for spending an hour with me this morning. And yeah, I hope wish you the best of luck in the coming semester. And yeah, it was it was good getting to talk with you and again, the The book is a great book. It's very deep. It's very rich. And it definitely took me several reads. I mean, I didn't finish all of it. But even the parts that I dug, I had to read two or three times as

Tyler Wittman 1:00:16

it is. Okay. Yeah, yes. It's dense enough that like, I think, when do I, when, when I was being examined, like, one of the examiners said, I had to read the introduction twice, because he's like, I just, he's like, it's not this not clear. It's just that it, it hits the ground, you know, at warp speed. And he's like an idiot. And it's deep. So I think even he had to read it kind of slowly. It's not, it packs, a lot of, I don't know, I think it's just it could have been more more well written and more clearly written. And I think that's evidenced by the fact that even people who have received the book for free to review it, I have read so many reviews, where I'm reading that, and I'm thinking this person did not understand what I was saying.

Charles Kim 1:01:04

So just, I don't know if I did or didn't understand all of it. And like I said, we didn't get to get to all we didn't even really tackle all the questions. But it was, it was good for me to exercise my muscles. And I'm only teaching languages right now. So I don't get to do the hard thinking as much as I enjoyed. And you know, what, one of the things that I've been telling other people is like, one of the criticisms that I received from my dissertation was that it was too historical. And that was meant, like, in some sense, as a positive and others that as a negative. My advisor said before you turn this into a book, you you know, you need to go back and really think through what does this mean theologically? Like what are you know, yeah, you, you've told me where Augustine came from. You've told me how this fits in his historical situation. You've told me a lot of interesting things. But what does that mean for how God works in the moment of the sermon? And so you know, so that's, I feel like one of the things that I enjoy about the podcast is I get to talk to other people who've done better theological work, and I get to learn and grow and, and sort of work my muscles a little bit more, so I appreciate it. Well, it's

Tyler Wittman 1:02:15

a it's a joy to talk about these things. And I appreciate your man

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